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Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith.

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex?

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome.

Let’s go!

How would housing justice help our sex lives?

My guest in this episode is Alva Gotby, a writer and housing organiser. She is also the author of the new book Feeling at Home, which is all about housing politics. Alva’s idea is we can’t talk about free sex without talking about housing — the spaces where we live have a huge impact on the kind of sex we’re able to have.

I talked with Alva about the horrifying housing crisis we’re living through, the progress (and backsliding) of women’s rights with regard to housing and sex, the way we give far too much power to landlords, and the coming legal changes to the housing system — which actually offer some tiny glimmers of hope.

Another book on this topic is Against Landlords by Nick Bano, which I’ve been reading recently and it’s excellent.

Adam

Alva Gotby, welcome to Free Sex. Thanks for loving me. Thanks for being here today like I have to ask you, how can we build a world where people can have the sex that they want?

Alva

Well, I think in order for people to have the sex they want, we also need to think about the spaces where people have sex. And for me, that's a lot of it is related to what kind of housing people are living in. And I think in order for people to have the sex that they want, we need to have housing justice.

Adam

That's right. That's great. And I'm really glad that you're bringing this topic, because I've had quite a few episodes where people have talked about public sex in in different ways, and also other spaces that's not housing, like, you know, sex clubs and sex venues and places like that. So I think it's really important to talk about the home and where we live. And you know, you just have this relatively new book out, feeling at home, which touches upon the importance of the home and how it's political so and housing obviously. So, yeah, so thanks for bringing this topic. So maybe break it down for me and explain what you mean by housing justice, and what is the evidence that we do not have that right now.

Alva

Yeah. I mean, we're sort of in the face of what people often describe as a housing crisis, right? That term gets used quite a lot, and I think what that means is that people often don't feel like they have much control over where they live, over their housing conditions, often because of the sort of the cost of housing, but also just because the the sort of the different choices that people might actually want aren't really available. And so it's a it's a housing system that's set up where tenants, especially and people who are sort of more precarious often can't really make choices about the housing they live in. It's often sort of you have options which are all sort of more or less bad, and that might shape how. How you sort of, how you live, who you live with, what kind of sort of social relations that you could have with other people, including, you know, what kind of sexual relations you could have, yeah, and it might be a situation where people are, you know, staying in relationships that they actually don't want, or they are living in a situation where they feel like because of how that housing is sort of organised, and they can't have the sex that they want?

Adam

Yeah, it's, it's one of those things that I think is, like, so obvious that we don't talk about it enough. We've definitely had this conversation that you've that you've mentioned there about the housing crisis, like, that's that is a political issue at the moment, right? And it has been for a couple of years. And, I mean, it's been an issue for a long time, but, I mean, I feel like it's in recent years, it's like, it's hit the it's hit their headlines. It's, you know, it politicians are being forced to talk about it and reckon with it. I'm not saying that they've got good solutions or anything, but like, it feels like it really is a live issue. But I think that sex is just not something that seems to be a part of that conversation and that as a political issue. And I wonder why that is. What do you think?

Alva

Yeah, I mean, I think the housing crisis, like how it's discussed, is often quite sort of technocratic in a way, or it's often about very technical solutions. That's about, you know, we need to build this number of homes in order to sort out affordability, or we need to change the law in this way. And so it's often more about it's often more about laws and policies and house prices. And then I think the parts about how people actually live in their homes, you know, who they share their homes with, and how that sort of shapes our daily lives, including our sex lives, is is often totally excluded from that, that conversation. So that's where I was trying to do in my book, feeling at home is to sort of add some of that, those aspects back into the conversation about the housing system. What

Adam

did you learn and what surprised you when you started down that particular path, when you were researching and writing, feeling at home?

Alva

Um, I think people have, very intense emotional connection to their homes. And that's, I mean, when you think about it, it's kind of obvious, but it's, it's often not something that is made explicit in a lot of conversation about housing politics. And you know, people feel sometimes like intense sentences of shame around the housing because of the sort of conditions that they are forced to live in that they haven't chosen themselves, and the sort of lack of control that people often feel around the housing situation, and how that really impacts people's overall, like lives and well being in a way that I think is really under recognised.

Adam

Yeah, that's really interesting. There was, there's another relatively new book out Nick Bano’s book, Against Landlords, and I was reading in it, there's the some stats that there was in 2022 there was not even one region in England where the average rent was affordable to a single woman on median earnings, and another one, which is like on average, the poorest 20% of private renters surrender more than half of their income to landlords. And these are just, I mean, there's a million stats in in this book, and a lot of research, and, you know, in yours, a lot of research in yours as well. And so I just thought that those two things were really interesting about, like, the, if we're talking about freedom and we're talking about wanting the future to be intersectional, and, you know, non hierarchical, or less hierarchical in terms of like gender, the gender binary and the gender difference there, you know that there's that stat about that a single woman like wouldn't On a median earning, wouldn't be able to live by herself and in the market, and that the poorest 20% of people are giving half of their income to landlords like this thing, of like class and gender, just being, just being very present in this, in this crisis, in this problem. And I'm wondering whether. Like, those are kind of quite technocratic stats, right? But then you just said about the emotions and the emotional connections that we feel. And I'm just wondering, like these things are like, they are connected. I'm just thinking, as a writer, how did you and how do you and as an organiser and campaigner as well, how do you try to, like, bridge this gap, because you need the stats, but you also need the emotional storytelling as well, because that's, that's, you know, that's essential to making change, isn't it? So, yeah,

Alva

I mean, I think that that stat about women being able to live on their own is really striking because that it sort of tells a story, which is a story that lots of people actually recognise in their own lives, about not being able to make choices independently about your living conditions, and also in in some cases, sort of feeling pushed into, you you know sort of heterosexual monogamy, monogamy, in a way, because you just can't afford to live on your own, and so that that option has sort of been taken away from you. And I hear this quite a lot, actually, now, especially from younger people, that they sort of recognise this in their own lives, even though this this, I think people often surprised by this statistic, and it's a good way to, like open people's eyes to how sort of widespread, this is, but it's also something that, you know, I'm hearing more and more among people who are sort of around my age and younger that they are, you know, they start to cohabit with someone that they've only Known for like, six months or whatever that you you sort of pushed into having a certain kind of, you know, romantic or sexual life that is sort of determined by what housing that gives you access to, in a way, Yeah, and that really, I think it's important to understand that statistic and also to have the sort of anecdotal, the sort of stories that people are sharing in order to understand how widespread this is becoming. You know, it's not a new thing, that housing and our living conditions are impacting people's sex lives and their romantic lives. It's, I mean, it's, it's probably always been the case in a lot of ways, but yeah, I think the way that housing affordability, especially in larger cities, is becoming such a big thing for how people experience their and their romantic lives is something that people still probably haven't thought thought about that much because of how, as I was saying earlier, the housing crisis is often seen as something that's about house prices and numbers of houses built. And that's yeah,

Adam

supply and demand. It's like, yeah, it's like a market system, which it is, but like, it's a market system with market solutions potentially and yeah, just a numbers game, yeah. But I think that yeah, what you were saying there about a there about the people being feeling like forced to move in with partners earlier than they otherwise would have done is a really, really kind of clear example of how the our rights can can change over time, and how, including that, they can go backwards, right? Because I think that, you know, in the grand sweep of like the Western world, there was this like feminist progression of like women getting more and more rights, you know, and I'm massively simplifying here, but you know, you've got, like, the things like the right to own property, then the right to vote, and then the right to contraception and the right to abortions, and then the right to marry same sex partners and and those kinds of things. And then, and, you know, it feels like when you say that, like, Well, look, there are women who are, like, forced to live with someone for housing seems like Victorian or even pre Victorian, right? It seems like that just goes completely against what we thought of, it was the progress of feminism and women's rights. And I think that that is just a really kind of strong argument that, like you can't talk about. Sexual freedom and those things like the rights that that, that we've won, and specifically the rights around sexual freedom, like contraception, for example, you know, and you can't say that like we're automatically living in a freer world now than we used to be when you have this problem of housing,

Alva

yeah. And I think it's also like, in order for women to have more freedom, there needs to be a housing system that can actually support people to make the choices that they want. And I think it's like, really under recognised how, for example, you know domestic violence, sexual abuse, is also a problem that's related to housing, and it's related to people's ability to leave relationships that are harmful and dangerous for them, and often people feel like actually It's better to stay in their relationship that is bad, or sometimes even abusive, because they don't have the other options in terms of what would happen to them if they left, is often that they would just become homeless. And so I think people are making those calculations, sort of, should I stay in this relationship that is not what I want, where I don't get the freedom that I want, or maybe people you know would prefer to just end the relationship in order to have more sexual freedom or be able to explore what they want, but not being able to do that, because then they would have to figure out, how are they going to, you know, find housing for themselves and sometimes their children as well. And so that's, I think, a massive problem for a lot of people who would actually like to change their personal relationships, but feel like they can't, and they don't have that freedom. And obviously it's it really impacts people different, differently as well. So we talked about how, you know, it impacts women, but also it impacts migrant women, more women of colour, disabled women, you know, queer and trans people as well in particular ways. So there's, there's just, like, lots of intersections in terms of what access different groups or people have to the housing that they would need in order to sort of make the choices that they would want to make.

Adam

Yeah, yeah. I think that's so interesting. I was wondering if you could say a bit more about the how sex factors into how we feel about our homes in terms of the space, because you said people have really strong emotional connections to their to their homes. And I think that that's true. And so, you know, and I often think like the flat where I live now, I've lived here for 16 years, and I started having, like, my sex life started in this flat, basically when I was 20, when I was 29 and and like, I often think if I did move out, whenever I think about if I moved out, or if I, you know, if my life was different and I moved out, like, what would I? How would I feel about this flat when I was leaving it? And always, that is one of the top three things that come into my mind, that, Oh, well, this was the flat where I started having sex and and that for me, that sex, what was, you know, not just about the sex itself, but it was also about, you know, a bigger change and revolution in my life, you know, as a queer person like that was, like, significant in lots of other ways. So when I was, when you were saying that, that's what I was thinking of, is like, what's my emotional connection to the to the flat in terms of the sex that I've had and and that that was it. So I wondered if there are either other examples from your work or conversations that you've had with people that kind of show a bit more about how sex factors into how we feel about our flats or our homes.

Alva

Yeah. I mean, it's, I think it's striking how having a housing situation that sort of enables you to have the sex that you want can feel like a sort of massive thing, and especially for people who might not have, you know, the kinds of sexual freedom that they would want, for example, in their sort of family home, moving out and being able to explore that is such an important thing, and it can mean like a whole new world of freedom and being able to explore your identity. Tea and, you know, feeling like you can actually be who you want to be for the first time. And sort of, I think the other side of that is that some people feel like the housing situation is really restricting their sex lives, and they're not able to have the sex that they do once because of how they're living, and that can be for lots of different reasons. But I think the fact that some people are in that situation, and you know, might really want to have, you know, sex at all, or a particular kind of sex, and they're not able to do that sort of in their domestic situation, and might not feel like there is any other space, you know, that they can access, and you know, public sex often being sort of stigmatised, also limiting people's choices. So I think for a lot of people, that sense of like, oh, actually, I would like to explore more. I would like to have a different kind of sex, or I would like to have sex, you know, full stop. And not being able to do that can be, you know, that can really shape how one relates to your home, right? And, yeah, sort of that can feel like, actually, this place where I have to live and is not allowing me to to be who I want to be. And people can feel like, very tapped in those situations.

Adam

Yeah, I'm now just thinking about the the I is the infrequency with which sex is a part of conversations about housing and the home. And I'm thinking about TV shows like Grand Designs, which is one of my favourite shows, and interior design masters, which I haven't watched, but I know what it's about and, and like, how you know, from what I you know, and those kinds of shows. And like, how, like, I don't think sex is like, usually talked about, you know, they say, like, Oh, this is where we're going to have the bedroom, and this is the going to be the kitchen, and this is the child's nursery, or whatever, or I or when they're designing different spaces. I don't think they feature sex spaces that much. You know, for those people who are like, make a space in their home for sex, but I just wonder, so there's that, and then there's also, like, interior and housing magazines. There's like, a whole industry of magazines about the home, and I just feel like sex is kind of like missed out of that. And, you know, someone like me says, like, why is that like, that's kind of, isn't that weird, and is it just, do you think it's just because sex is a, still a dirty thing that we don't really want to talk about that much, and especially not when we're talking about something that's, you know, quote, unquote, like, nice and stylish and and cool and cosy and all those, like those other associations that we have with the home, that sex sort of just doesn't fit with those conventional associations that we have with the

Alva

home. Yeah, I mean, I think in that kind of sphere, I guess, or in that kind of discourse, is is often really shaped by these so the Bucha ideals that we're seeing like throughout you know, since the 19th century that sex is essentially something that's private, that you know you should be having sex if you're like, cohabiting with the partner, but You're probably not going to talk about it publicly, because sex belongs in the bedroom, you know, behind closed doors, and even even in those examples that you were giving when it's about people's actual bedrooms or the homes In general, it's something that's, I think, at most, sort of hinted at in most, like TV programmes or magazines, but not really spoken about explicitly.

Adam

Yeah, I think it's so interesting. Like, imagine just if there was a Grand Designs episode where they were building a house, you know, where they spend like, 800,000 pounds, and they mortgage, they re mortgage their their two houses, and they sell one of the children's kidneys and stuff, and then, and just as part of the house design, you know, they're like, this is the garden landscape. This is the kitchen with a double oven, and then here's the sex room. Or, like, Look at this cute bedroom, which also is where we're gonna have our sex parties or whatever. Like, you would just be, like, even if they said that, like, it would get cut out, you know, on a on a sort of mainstream show like that, wouldn't it?

Alva

Yeah, I mean, I think there was, if I'm not mistaken, and I didn't watch this, but I have a vague memory that was actually like an interior design show up. About, like, building a sex room, like, buildings, yeah. But I think it's interesting that that is, you know, it's its own TV programme that's just about that. That's like, exactly, and it's like, want to watch that you can, you can watch that show, and it's not going to be mentioned anywhere else. So it's still seen as the thing that's like, Oh, if you want to talk about sex, you need to, you know, really make Yeah, you have to have, like, a separate show or magazine or whatever, that's about sex. Yeah? Talk it. Talk about it. Yeah, in one of the sort of more mainstream venues or programmes. Do

Adam

you know from other countries that you're familiar with? If any like how that is, how that kind of conversation is different, because we're just, we're speaking in Britain. And, you know, I grew up in Britain, and I know we have our own specific ways of talking about sex. You know, I'm just curious if you know any other countries where there's a comparison to make there?

Alva

Yeah, I mean, I'm Scandinavian, so I grew up in Sweden, which, I mean, when I was growing up, I think had the fairly like, similar attitudes to slacks. I don't, I don't think there are, like, massive differences that I've noticed in a lot of sort of, you know, European American culture. I feel like it's fairly similar. There's this, like, slight, you know, I think in the 70s, like Scandinavian countries were, like, rebranding themselves as, like, very sex liberal and so, yeah, this moment of people making films about that, or, like, you know, embracing a culture that was talking more explicitly about sex, and in some parts of that was actually, you know, interesting and progressive, and it was part of, like a feminist movement that wanted to make the private space like a political concern, and wanted To address, you know, sexual freedom from a feminist perspective, but I think it's interesting that that's, I mean, it's not like it's completely disappeared, but it's not very present. I think currently in how people talk about sex or domestic lives, or, yeah, sort of how people relate to that, which is interesting, that it had this sort of brief moment and then kind of disappeared.

Adam

Yeah, that is really interesting, but I suppose it says that it can happen again, you know, like, I'm not sort of some kind of like gooey eyed optimist, but I think we know that, you know, the future is for our making in a way, like yes, the stakes might be again, the Yeah, the things might. Things might be against us. Who, what, those of us who want to make change in this particular way, but things can I don't want to say things can get better, because it sounds a bit trite, but, and it is trite, but, you know, it just shows that everything is in our gifts to change how society works. So with that in mind, I want to ask you, as someone you know, as a housing organiser, if you were knowing what you know and all the conversations that you're involved in, in the in the work you're involved in, in the Organising like, I'm curious, you know, like, what would be maybe three changes that if you were Prime Minister You could make overnight as to how to, how to how to get housing justice? Basically, like, I know it's not going to be as simple as these three quick changes, but maybe if you give me an idea of the three that would make, like, the biggest impact,

Alva

yeah. I mean, I think the, I think basically giving people more control over their living conditions is the overall aim, and I think that will enable people more freedom in terms of their lives in general, and in terms of their sex lives as well.

Adam

So does that mean giving like changing what types of tenancy contracts are available and changing something about, like, how, like, what property can be used for housing, or something like that.

Alva

I mean, I think, I actually think that something that would bring the cost of housing down. Young would be a massive change for people, because it would mean that people aren't forced into those situations that we were talking about earlier, whether you sort of staying in the relationship or starting a relationship in order to make sure that you you know you can afford your housing. And it also means that people would have more sort of control and choice in terms of, yeah, who they were living with, why they were living you know, are you able to live in the city where you can access, like a queer nightclub, for example? Yeah, exactly. And so those things like rent controls that could actually change people being able to afford housing in places where they want to live would make a massive impact on tenants lives in so many different ways, but including how people have sex.

Adam

Sorry, no, go ahead. I was just going to ask about rent controls, because you'll know more than me about it. Like, is it a possible? I don't mean politically. I just mean No, maybe I do mean politically. Like, is it a possibility? Because it seems like people like us talk about rent controls all the time in Britain, and it just feels like we might as well be saying, like everyone gets 100 free cheesecakes on their birthday, like it's just never going to happen. Whereas it's weird though, because there are other countries around the world where people do get 100 free cheesecakes on their birthday, you know, like there is rent control. So, like, what's your kind of analysis of where we are with rent controls politically in the UK? Yeah.

Alva

I mean, I think it's, it's one of those things where we've been told for so long that it just isn't possible, and people have sort of started to believe that it's not possible and it's not going to happen. But, you know, rent controls were abolished in this country less than 40 years ago. And as you said, many other countries that have sort of similar economies to the UK do have them, and they're completely normal there. Like people don't really think about the fact that their housing is cheaper because everyone controls because it's just like, well, that's how things are. And here we've been told for so long that, you know, we need to let the market set house prices, because otherwise, you know, the housing system will just collapse, which is quite silly, but lots of people really believe it. So, yeah, I mean, it's very possible to do it, and it's interesting that Scotland, you know, introducing rent controls and Spain as well. So it's like happening in places where they haven't exist and they existed previously. And I think that's that's sort of what's going to make it possible in in England as well, as is that at some point people will look at other countries and say that they have rent controls, and it's working there, and that has actually done something to, you know, alleviate the housing crisis that we're in, yeah, so we should try it, yeah, and, and that's, you know, it feels like quite far away right now, and the government has said, Oh, we're not going to introduce rent controls, but I could be a thing that people you know, suddenly it just becomes the common sense. Like a few years ago, it seemed like a very, you know, ridiculous things to say that no fault, evictions would be abolished. But then it became the common sense across the political spectrum that that was a good thing to do, and it was then the Labour Party put it in their manifesto, and then the Tory party also put it in their manifesto. And it still hasn't happened, but at least there's a political consensus that emerged. I was not just possible, but actually something that a lot of people wanted, yeah,

Adam

and even though it hasn't happened, it is going to happen. Is that right? Like there is, like the bills are going through Parliament, and so it's kind of inevitable. Is that right? Yes,

Alva

slowly, slowly, we're getting there, hopefully towards the end of this year or early next year. Okay, we should have a new new housing law, which I think is also going to be really important in terms of how people relate to their homes as places where they can stay. I thought it was interesting when you mentioned that you've been in your flat for a long time and you have all of these memories. And people actually being able to stay in their homes when they want to is also something I think having that freedom, and having the freedom to stay in a place that you feel connected to, whether you it's because you like living in that area or because it enables you to have the sex life that you want. You know that that's all sort of really important for people's freedom in housing

Adam

absolutely and and enables me to make a podcast in in the bedroom. Yeah. I mean, it's very unusual as a tenant to have lived somewhere for this long. It's, you know, the flat is owned by a trust. It's not a private landlord, and it's the kind of trust where they want long term tenants. So it's just very lucky that I managed to move in here like that that time ago. And various, you know, friends and flatmates have come and gone, and, you know, we've lived in different configurations and everything. But it is amazing to have lived somewhere this long, but it also shouldn't be amazing. And I'm really conscious of that, that like this is not, this shouldn't be exceptional, you know, because, like most of my other friends of my generation, have moved like loads of times in that same time period because they've been renting and their landlord is just selling the flat or putting the rent up. So you know that hopefully will end with that bill that bill that you're talking about that goes through Parliament because of the no fault evictions and the change to the contract type, I think the type of lease where it's going to be rolling, if I'm right, so hopefully that might start to make some changes.

Alva

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's more than just the legal changes. I think this will, it could potentially be a big cultural change as well. And you know how people relate to their housing and feeling able to say, actually, I want to stay here because this place is important for me. That's something that lots of people, you know, feel like they can't do, they can't stand up to their landlord in that way. And so you have this random stranger who's so in control of your life in a way, yeah. And you know how you live, where you living, who you living with, yeah. And so you, you sort of have to give that control over to someone who you don't know, and he who's just there to sort of extract money from you, yeah, yeah. And yeah, that's really sort of extraordinary that we're in that situation. But yeah, I think the importance of this law, these changes to law is not going to be just about, you know, people's sort of contractual rights, although, like, that's really important. What is going on? If it's if it has an impact, it will be because of a cultural shift where tenants actually feel like, now I have more control over my housing, and I'm going to use that control, and I'm going to say I am not going to accept a rent increase, I'm not going to leave I want to live with these people and not with some random stranger and that kind of thing. And I think that's also for us who are in the housing movement to sort of create those changes and making sure that this is actually impacting how people relate emotionally to their housing and what they feel able to do.

Adam

I think that's a really great place to leave at Alva and just to know also that the changes that we are going to be seeing soon, those legal changes, but also, I think the cult, the cultural shift that we are definitely now happening where there's more awareness for this issue and there's more political pressure on it. I think that is a result of people in the movement, the housing movement, like you doing this kind of work. So I'm hopeful that if you keep that pressure up, that we can see the good change. I hope so. Yeah, thank you for doing it and thanks for having this conversation.

Alva

Thanks for having me. It's been great to chat to you.

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode!

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX - the idea or this podcast!

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x

Listen to this episode on your podcast player of choice.

Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith.

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex?

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome.

Let’s go!

How can we prioritise pleasure?

My guest in this episode is Prishita Maheshwari-Aplin, a writer and queer community organiser. Having just written a book about the politics of pleasure, called Roses for Hedone, Prishita has a lot of deep thoughts about how we could structure our societies so we can pursue pleasure. You can see why I wanted to speak to them!

It might be self-evident that a world of free sex includes the pursuit of pleasure, but I found talking about this with Prishita to be immensely illuminating. Once we started, I realised that for many of us sex is not always, or even often, really about pleasure at all. And, weirdly conversely, that it’s important to single out pleasure as a human experience to be fostered, because then you can start to see that it’s also about so much more than sex...

Prishita Maheshwari-Aplin, welcome to Free Sex.

Prishita

Thank you. It's so great to be here

Adam

I really loved your book, and that's why I wanted to have this conversation with you. You're like a sort of perfect guest for free sex in lots of ways. So I think you know what my question is, which is, how can we build a world where people can have the sex that they want?

Prishita

I think it's really about rooting that in the pursuit of pleasure. Okay,

Adam

now, that sounds quite self evident, right? Like, I think a lot of people think sex is about pleasure, like, obviously. So tell me why you think it is that you need to say that.

Prishita

Because while it might sound self evident, and people, I think generally, you know, I think especially now, with all the conversations that we're having around re centering pleasure and prioritising our pleasure, people do think that that is what, ultimately, our sex is about. But actually, in my experience and maybe my understanding of the reasons behind us having sex and the ways in which we have sex, I don't think that it's always that's pleasure is always at the centre of the sex that we are having, Whether that is because our own desires are coming from a place that isn't thinking about pleasure as this, like holistic experience and like either something that we deserve or something that we can prioritise. Or we as individuals, can sometimes feel like may feel incapable of being embodied enough to experience pleasure in our sex because of experiences we may have had in our lives, or just because the way in which the world is a capitalist society is set up to keep us striding forward in like a sort of constant search for the better, the more, rather than allowing us space to be embodied and experience pleasure in the current moment. Or it may be that the way we relate to others, that sex is about something else, rather than the kind of total, full experience of pleasure. It may be about power. It may be about transaction. It may be about. Are other things that can exist between two people. And not to say that any of this is wrong, but it's just that I personally think that there is still a way for us to go as a collective when we think about the sex we're having and the role that pleasure plays in it. Yeah,

Adam

I love that, and it fits really perfectly with the mission of free sex, because what, first of all, it acknowledges that sex is not a distinct thing, that it is connected to all these other things in life, like it connects to, like who you are and how you feel about yourself, what's going on for you, and then also the structures that you find yourself in, like big structures like capitalism and white supremacy and, you know, things like that. But then also smaller structures, like the family that you're a part of, the relationship that you're a part of, it's like sex is not a distinct thing. This is just connects to all these things. And that's why there's something that bugs me about the way that we talk about sex is that, like it's, it's as if it's this distinct thing, you know, like, one of my pet peeves is when people say, like, Oh, I was just having me. Just having meaningless sex. And it's like, no, it was full of meaning and connections in different ways. It's okay. You can absolutely get your brains fucked out. Yeah, I don't think that's meaningless, like, it's connected to these other things. So it does that at the same time. It also says, but let's talk about this pleasure thing, because that is, that is the thing that's really quite unique about sex compared to lots of other things that we can do in life. So yeah, I really appreciate bringing that topic onto the podcast. What made you start thinking about this as a distinct topic.

Prishita

I think for me, it was my own actually, as you know, self, self centred, sort of egotistical writer vibes, it was just my own experience. Now, I think I, I moved to London after university, and I very much considered myself like a very sexually liberated hellness. I was like, I'm gonna really enjoy the sexual playground that the city has to offer and really revel in all the hedonism that's the hedonism that's on offer. But I very quickly realised that for me, personally, perhaps the pursuit of what I was thinking of as my pleasure wasn't really rooted in my own pleasure. I mean, yeah, I just very quickly realised that what I was perceiving as and what I was maybe like convincing myself was this liberated pursuit of my pleasure often left me feeling really empty, often left me feeling very alone, often left me seeking even more of that connection that I thought that I was gaining through these experiences that I was thinking of as pleasure, and it kind of made me rethink, like, What is pleasure? Does it look like just one thing? What is, what are the kind of folds and the like multiplicities that exist within our understanding experiences of pleasure and hedonism? Yeah, and then also, how does that fit within the value system that I was like very quickly, kind of like developing and rooting myself in during that time. So, you know, I was in a really like, and not everyone has this experience, of course, but my own thinking came from the fact that, like, I was in a kind of space of rethinking my inner my sort of childhood, like healing from traumas, and found the amazing, the amazing kind of queer community in London that were doing a lot of grassroots activism, and really threw myself into organising for the queer community, and found all these spaces where, actually, the I was getting in, gaining, like, an immense amount of connection and pleasure from a very wide range of experiences. And some of that was sexy, some of that was kinky. Some of that was, you know, going on, like night pride walks. Some of that was, was making banners. Some of that was cosy movie nights, and some of that was like endless hours of sort of meetings and protesting, and, yeah, all of that. And all of that, to me, felt like pleasure, and all of that contributed to the sex that I was having, like the sex that I was having got better and got more caring, got more value rooted. I met people that were more aligned with me, because everything else in my life was kind of aligning my pleasure with this value system. And that kind of really got me thinking about how I was I engaged with it, but also how the queer community and the kind of society as a whole engage with pleasure and with sex.

Adam

Yeah, I think that's really interesting, and I relate a lot to that. Like your Yeah, your experiences there, you're like, integrated experience. Thinks, is there, like, really true for me too, brackets queer because it, because it's that's kind of like a foundational point there, but it does make me think, like, is and that just, I don't know, just play the game with me, like, you know, if you were a very different person, like, with different values. Could their pleasure come just from also finding the same community with the same value system? So let's say that you're like something like finance bro, who's like, all about the capitalism and the free market. And like, Yeah, I'm going to make loads of money, and I want to be in a community of people that make loads of money, and we go on our super yachts again, you know, for our holidays together, and we like, invite all the sexy people with the magazine bodies and all of that stuff. And then, like, did they have good sex? Because they've managed to, like, integrate their sex life with their their value systems and their community, and is that, is that their pleasure? Because when they're having sex in their way, it's like confirming it's the pleasure that they want, and it's confirming the like values that they have.

Prishita

Wow, I'm gonna put myself into the mind and body of a finance bro. I can't believe, Oh, you're making me do this on a sunny Thursday afternoon.

Adam

I know I have put you on the spot. We didn't prepare to talk about this, but it just came into my head. I don't know, I

Prishita

love it. I love it. And I think it's actually very important to have these conversations and try to put ourselves in the minds of people with different perspectives and different lives, because it can be very easy to just sit in our bubble and be like, blah, blah, blah. This is beautiful. This is a community. But actually, I genuinely believe that I would like to reach and connect with people with different different experiences, different priorities. So yeah, thinking about that, I'm not here to tell anyone whether the sex they're having is good or pleasurable for them. You know, like everyone's own experiences of their own sex and their own lives are valid. But I think that for me, when I think about specifically, like a queer hedonism, which is what I write about in my book, as the root of a pleasure, an experiencing of pleasure that is like rooted in creating a space in the world for ourselves as individuals, where we can like thrive and also where we can keep thriving into the future. There is a level of like, there's a level of like futurity and like collectiveness that comes into this definition of queer hedonism and pleasure, which I put under a term, which is hedono futurism, right? And I think that hedono futurism personally cannot be experienced if the pleasure that is being sought out and experienced comes at the detriment of other people right in the world. So, you know, like on an individual level, maybe those, those finance bros, are having amazing sex because they are feeling affirmed in their masculinity. I'm making broad, sweeping statements here, but if I was a finance bro, I'd want to be affirmed in my masculinity. You know, they're surrounded by sexy people they could see on the cover of magazines they're making. They're spending a lot of money on their, you know, holiday destinations. But ultimately, they're functioning very much fun, not even functioning within but like upholding and perpetrating a system of capitalism and inequality, yeah, that will not, cannot, does not create a future that is sustainable for everyone and for our planet to thrive in and so ultimately, like you know, it may be fun for now, but that is a pleasure that is actually causing long to longer term harm, not only to other people, but to those people, because they themselves. I personally don't know a single person who is driven by making money, who is ever satisfied or content, right, right, right? Because it's never enough, yeah, and that's what capitalism teaches us, that it's never enough, that we should always be seeking out more. And I think that hedono futurism and actually rooting in pleasure in the moment directly challenges that capitalist approach to there always being something better out there, because you're enjoying the present moment to its full extent. Yeah,

Adam

I think what you've picked up on there between by comparing your. Self to the finance bro, and I'm really grateful for you indulging me in that is that, essentially, even though the finance bro on the Super yacht having the amazing sex in their terms, and it being the sex that, like absolutely matches with their values, if they're having sex with the supermodel. And, you know, and that they're able to do that, and all of that, that, like, that's kind of, it's basically got competition at its heart there, because it's basically about, like, well, first of all, I believe in a, like, a gender binary, which is a kind of, like, competitive framing, like, it puts us against each other, doesn't it? Yeah, and, and then it's like, I'm having sex with this gorgeous person so that I can go and tell someone else I have sex with. Look at this person who I've had sex with. And obviously, you know, we all, or many of us, do that to some extent, like, but I think that there's a different tone in it, of like, I think that there is a competition in that, and also that, like, maybe I'm a better person than a person who can't go on a super yacht or can't have sex with this particular supermodel, whereas, and I bring that up because that's, I think, the opposite to the collectivity which your idea is offering, and that we're going to maybe talk about a bit more, because I want to hear more from you about it. But it's also something that is because your theory and your experience is rooted in queer culture and queer community that like and queer identity actually, that it's something that I'm really sensitive to in the queer world, is that there, there is still this competition gene that's in all of us, because we're all Raised in capitalism and like, you even hear the same you hear, you would hear the same things happening between two queer people who are having great, pleasurable sex. For example, sometimes you hear like this boast of, like, Ah, he was like this, or he was like this and, or like, you know, yeah, or he's not enough x, or she's not enough, why, or whatever. And so I just think, like, there is that, like, competition gene, and I guess the finance bros are at the extreme end of it, in our kind of, or in at least my like, lazy like metaphor here. But yeah, I think competition, right? That's what it comes down to.

Prishita

Yeah, it's competition, because we are sold an idea of scarcity, right? And the competition is rooted in scarcity. Oh, my God, you're right. So the comp, the competition, yes, like, I'm an, I studied evolutionary biology at university, so, like, I'm not even gonna, you know, I'm not gonna, like, I could talk a lot about The Selfish Gene and the competition as being an evolutionary aspect of our society, but ultimately, we as human beings do not exist in that context anymore. Like we don't exist in a natural environment where we are competing for resources exactly in like, a very natural way. Now the competition that we that exists is is artificially created by people who hoard like there is inequality and the scarcity is, is artificially created by those with power and those with billions and those who have super yachts and fly private jets everywhere, and want the power in different ways, and that is, the competition is rooted in in this, in the idea of scarcity. But actually, pleasure is not scarce, like pleasure is actually an individual, embodied experience. That is, that cannot be scarce. We can find pleasure in everything. And obviously, some people, I'm not saying that some people don't have more access to the material things that can bring pleasure than others, and I'm not saying that some people are not denied access to the things that can bring them pleasure, but like pleasure as an as an experience, is not a scarce experience. Yeah. And so I think that when we buy into scarcity, that's when we, I think, kind of can lean into, like transactional, transactional sex, or like hyper focus, like superficial sex or or like, I guess, undermine our own values and boundaries, because we think, Well, This is the only time this is gonna happen, right? Exactly, yeah, rather than thinking of it as this, like an abundant, like this abundant possibility,

Adam

I absolutely love that. That's a really new framing, and that new idea to me. So thank you. Honestly, like that's I really. Love that like, you know, like the vast majority of people are, like able and wanting to have, like pleasure and sexual pleasure. And you know, it's so it is an abundance. You know, it's, it's as big as the population is, it's, it's relative to that. So why treat it like a like a scarce resource? Because, but I think it's kind of complicated, and it's hard to kind of get our heads into that. Because you know, if you're if you're a man who has sex with men, and you open grinder and you see an abundance there, but there's something about the way that that grid is structured, plus the super structure that we're all living in, which makes you think, hang on a minute. I want that guy, and I bet everyone else wants that one guy out of this grid. And if and if I don't get him, then I'm a piece of shit. And it's like, hang on a minute. You're literally looking at all the options, and you are one of them too.

Prishita

Yeah, I know it's fascinating. I mean that whole like wanting what other people's people have is a fascinating thing. And again, it is, is an evolutionary concept called mate choice, copying where we are genuinely we are attracted like we are attracted to people that other people are attracted to, because in a kind of like natural context, it will save a lot of time and cost to mate with, mate with the like ones either others have already tested, or someone who's considered fit by the general population, yes, by the general population, because then your offspring will also be considered hot by the general population. Yeah. So there is, there is, like, you know, there are evolutionary theories that like back that. But I think it's interesting when we think about it, in the concept context of queerness, because firstly, we're not, if we're having same sex, you know, quotation marks, same sex, like sex, we're not doing that to produce offs. We're not producing offspring there, considered, definitely not reactive. Yeah, and, and, why are we replicating those? Like, I guess, reproductive, like, evolutionarily like concepts and kind of heteronormative ideas of of ways in which we relate to one another in our queer culture. And I think part of it is like, you know, obviously there's, there's lots to be said about the role that assimilation has played in the ways that the LGBTQ community has sought safety and recognition. But I also, I also think that is again, we come back to sort of this, this capitalist competition and scarcity, because we don't have much time like we want pleasure, and pleasure is abundant, but we aren't given very much time to experience that pleasure, to be able to, like stop, to again, like be embodied, and to think in this current moment, like, can I be still? Can I actually experience the pleasure in my own body? Yeah. And so, of course, like, grinder is about, I think it becomes about convenience for some people, and convenience it's, it does save time to just go for the top pick, to just sort of like, you know, act quickly as well. But I write, we coming back to the kind of collectiveness that we were talking about. I mean, I write, in my in my book about, I refer to this essay by Tim Wu in the New York Times called the tyranny of convenience, right? And he writes about how, yeah, convenience was sold to us. This is like magic thing that's going to make our lives better, especially through technology, but it's actually become a way in which we are even more enslaved to the systems and the kind of structures that exist, and the way in which we can break out of that is by sometimes choosing struggle, like he says Something like, struggle is sometimes the answer. And I think that pleasure, and like collective pleasure, and sort of like seeing our pleasure, not as an individualistic pursuit, but as a way in which we can create connection, community and Futurism is a way in which to also combat that tyranny of convenience. Like to sometimes to struggle together, because we can help each other struggle like we don't have to do it alone. And actually, that's beautiful,

Adam

yeah. And actually, so I have, like, a reflection on that, and then a question, a bit more about collective pleasure. The reflection is the just hearing you talk there at my. Me of a scene in the film 120 BPM, which is about activists in act up in the 90s in Paris, like protesting the pharma companies that were restricting access to HIV medication. And there's, there's a scene where two of the activists both gay men, I guess, and like, I think, in one of them is HIV, at least one of them is HIV positive, and they're like lovers, and they have sex, and you see them as activists. And the things about activists, like they have, like, so much energy, and you know, which is very much anger and rage, and then they managed to channel that into, you know, like, action, which is why I admire them, because I don't have the same energy. I have the same views, often, as them, but like, not the same energy and and you so you see them being activists, and then you see those two having sex with each other, and it's really, really really tender in a private moment between the two, and it means a lot to them both individually, as individual people with and, yeah, having their own story. But then it's imbued with this mission that they're doing outside of the bedroom, which is about which, which is hedono futurism, you know, which includes, like, access to the medicines that are going to keep us alive, and everyone should have that, as well as, like, other things. And so it's kind of got this extra layer to it, and it look and it's also one of the best sex scenes in cinema, right? So it just made me think of that that like, I'm not saying that activists have better sex by default, because that's probably not true, but I don't know. Maybe you want to make that case go for it.

Prishita

No, no, no, I don't think that we say that completely clear. Also, I think there's a lot of very shitty activists out there, problematic, problematic people. But no, no, no, i i Sorry. We want to finish your sentence. No, that

Adam

was, that was it I just, I wanted to, kind of just hearing you talk about that made me remember that scene, and that was, and that was the reason why, because I think it was like an embodiment of what you were saying in a scene between two people having sex, you know,

Prishita

yeah, I really feel that I loved that scene in that film, generally. I mean, absolutely stunning. I think that it's it's fun, fun, I guess fun. It can be fun and pleasurable and also very interesting to think about the sex that we're having or not having as also kind of like providing the kind of like private to public framework for like how we want to relate to others and our lives, because ultimately, like the way in which we relate to like private individuals in our bedrooms or not in our bedrooms, or not individual, not individuals groups, but like in those very vulnerable and intimate connections that we may have with people, and I agree, coming back to what you were saying at the start, like sex is never meaningless, like it's it may be that the communication that has happened and the boundaries that have been communicated of you know, are very like boundaried or that it doesn't involve very much talking, or you're not like trying to sort of embed into each other's lives, but it's always full of meaning, because I think that's very much at the core of us as individuals and us as people, and how we like sit in the world and relate to others. And I think that really like ricochets out and like spreads out from what happens in those moments when we're fucking because how we like communicate to others, how we want someone to like walk away from that interaction with us. I think that lays the groundwork and foundation for how we want the general world to feel when we're in it, like, yeah, yeah. I want someone who I'm not having sex with to walk away from an interaction with me feeling similarly in some ways, to someone who I've just had sex with, like, yeah. I want them to feel seen and heard and grounded and like, you know, unless, unless I'm having a negative interaction with them, obviously, like, yeah. I like, yeah, it doesn't Yeah, it's not different. It's not different. And I think we, I think that that kind of stuff, I think that's where the kind of activism, activists and activism conversation is interesting. Because I think that what happens in or out the bedroom is in is very much linked and intertwined.

Adam

Yeah, yeah. So then what would be the concrete changes you would make? To society to try to organise it around collective pleasure, four day weeks, okay, yeah, this is, this is, this is what I'm talking about, concrete, yeah, I want you to see, you know, your Prime Minister for the year, or whatever it is like, four day weeks, right? So that gives us more time and therefore more energy, because we're working less, yes, to pursue the pleasure if we want to. Yeah,

Prishita

I would also open up every single park after nightfall, but like, implement, like a welfare team kind of Rota, yeah. So it's not like completely on. There's, you know, that kind of basically make every park into like a dark room with a welfare team,

Prishita

yeah, basically at night time where there are no kids around anyway, so that's okay, and I would, I mean, I think at the core of it is also just, like, very, very, very inclusive, broad spectrum and accessible sex education in schools. Because, yeah, I mean, you know, foundational, yeah, like, we can talk about all these ways in which adults can understand the world that we live in and our connections with others. But if, if sex education, if relationships and sex education at schools not only talked to children about, you know, the ins and outs of how we actually have safe, consensual sex, and what queer relationships look like, and all of that. But also spoke about structures like colonialism and capitalism, how attraction can be influenced by colonial ideas of beauty, about whiteness and white supremacy, if we spoke about how time is like a scarce concept that can, like, take time away from those moments in which we are just still with another person? Yeah, obviously, age appropriately. I think that that could honestly be one of the biggest ways in which we could create this future, because we, we do just grow up in a society that, like replicates and reaffirms are ultimately quite harmful ideas of how we relate to ourselves and with the to the world so related to that. Then

Adam

I have another kind of concrete policy idea, right, which is I wonder whether we need if we're going to build a society where people can pursue collective pleasure, whether we need to start work on removing the the impulse of competition, and whether that starts by, for example, at school, having a ban on competitive sports or like, playing sports, but where part of the education is very much like, it does not matter who wins. It's not about being the best team. It's about having the best collective day together and including both teams. Like, do you see what I'm doing? I'm saying I'm explicitly choosing something that's not about sex, but it's about ways that we get together as people and compete with each other, and trying to make that into a collective activity and not a competitive one.

Prishita

Yeah, yeah. I really, really see that. I think that's really great, yeah, kind of the focus being much more on, how do we work together as a team to get that ball in that goal? Yeah, rather than we got to beat the other team, and then we have to get the ball in the goal, and actually,

Adam

how do the two of us teams work together. Yes, we can play against each other, because we're going to try and get the ball in your goal, in the likewise, opposite, whatever. But like, how do we make sure that this is that the end of the match that we've both given each other the best time? Like, that's the real goal, is that, not that we beat you. And obviously there are plenty of people that approach like social sports in this very way, like plenty of leagues that do that and stuff, yeah, if it's football or whatever, but obviously not at the professional end, like it really is about being the biggest team with getting the biggest prize. But that also means, if we do that, that we also mean, okay, all prizes and awards are cancelled. Like, there's no such thing as wildlife photographer of the year anymore. What there is is maybe, like, you know, 50 really good wildlife photographers this year. Year or something like that. Yeah, I think that, or am I going too far? Yeah, I'm

Prishita

trying to think about this, and I'm also trying to decouple it from my own incredibly high, pressured upbringing. Okay, because I definitely have a lot of internalised ideas around success and recognition and like, you know, winning and competition and like, I'm trying to think, I think, I think the thing is that I think that appreciation and recognition is really, like, important for people's sort of, like well being and like sense, I think, I think, you know, sense of, sort of belonging and care, but that affirmation and appreciation. I think, I think if we could try and create a system where that comes, like in small bursts all through people's lives, rather than this, like one big award that you have others at to achieve. It's like, yeah, okay, it's more about the journey. And I actually think that's quite it's quite funny to think about that in terms of sex too, because it's like, it's not about the orgasm, it's about the like journey. It's about the like, constant sort of affirmation about the foreplay and about the journey that you're on together and how things feel good along the way. It's not just about the big end goal, yeah, so I guess that's that, yeah. That would, that would be, that would be cool as a system. The other thing that I think policy change big time would be a tax on the super rich, redistribute that wealth, really put it back into like, services that allow people the safety nets they need to be able to have more time to put into their own pleasure. Yeah,

Adam

yeah. And that would involve things like you can, like, beef up sexual health services and mental health services that are connected to that. Where else would that money go?

Prishita

Yeah, obviously, like things like sort of trans and like disability healthcare funds, yeah, and services, I think, like community sort of like put back into sort of youth community centres and community spaces that are like free as places for young people to gather, that are not necessarily just centred about around alcohol or spending money. Yeah, and yeah, yeah, things like that, yeah.

Adam

And it's funny, because, like, in the grand scheme of the economy and everything, I feel like all the things that we've just said in the grand scheme are not that expensive. Do you know what I mean? Like you're talking about redistribution, but it's actually not a lot of money that needs to be redistributed in order to give those people those things and those freedoms.

Prishita

And it's there. It's in the pockets and the assets of people with over 10 million pounds worth of assets who don't pay proportional tax like it exists and the rest of it is really not that big an ask. It's not impossible. Yeah, it just takes prioritisation and a cultural shift. And unfortunately, people prioritising their pleasure and rest and giving up our competition doesn't serve the society that we're in. Yeah, that's not gonna be prioritised. So we gotta create it in our own pockets. You know, that's right,

Adam

that's right. So moving towards the future, because a big part of your what you're talking about is, like, head on a pleasure hedono futurism, and like, futuristic pleasure, you've mentioned it a few times, and I think you've mentioned think you've mentioned solidarity and care within that. I just wonder whether we could say a bit more about the future. Obviously, everything that we've talked about is so this imagined future, but maybe a bit more about what you mean when you talk about futuristic pleasure.

Prishita

Yeah, so when I talk about futuristic pleasure, I'm talking about a pluriversal future. So there, there is a pluriversal dictionary, and like, a set of essays and values that have been put together by a group of academics from all around the world, like theorists and academics from different parts of the world. Yeah. And there they have, like, lots of essays that talk about different aspects of this pure reversal future, but the kind of values that are listed at the top at this in the introduction include things like reciprocity, non hierarchy, oneness with nature, a kind of commons and collective ethics. And finally, like you know, I think that a lot of those things are values that are already existing and and modelled by and have been modelled by us, like fragments and groups within the queer community. Yeah, like, I. Actually wrote an essay last year about like how we can actually look at existing models in past and present queer groups that do model these values and kind of use them as existing models for creating this reversal future. So you know how grassroots activist groups often do to find ways in which to be non hierarchical, whether that's having different people chair meetings. I think the Gay Liberation Front used to have this like pink ceramic pink triangle, where in meetings, everyone would just put their thoughts and comments in that, and then they would like randomly pick things out at the end, so that certain people didn't speak more than others, there was a level of, like, it's sort of like they were, you know, that was a way in which they tried to create a level of equality and, like, non hierarchy in those meetings, yeah. And there's plenty of sort of communes, like queer nature groups like the idea of sort of queer nature in itself, links to oneness with nature. So that's kind of the idea of the that's the future that I sort of am talking about and conceiving of and aligning with when I speak of a queer futurity is a pluriversal future where all the different ways of like, the spiritual, the physical, the natural, the human, like streams of life are sort of interconnected and intertwined in a more holistic way. I hate that word, which has been so co opted by white spirituality, but like, truly holistic. Yeah, and I think, and I think that the way to get there is, is this sort of collective, collective caring pleasure that is rooted in communality and solidarity and those values that are Yeah, that are listed,

Adam

yeah, yeah. I love that. I mean, it's, it's huge. It would be a complete revolution, upheaval of how we live, which I don't mean to say in to be disparaging. I'm just saying it to like, name, like how far away we are from that and how lost we are.

Prishita

It's true. But I also think that we, I guess it depends on who you mean. When we on you say we,

Adam

because I think, okay, so as a

Prishita

as broader society that is controlled by political policy and billionaires, tech billionaires, who have a lot of influence and agenda. Yes, we are very far away. But if we're thinking about we as communities who are every single day trying to create those pockets of worlds like right in the moment. I don't think we're very far at all. I mean, yeah, I write in my book about the encampments that popped up all around the world in response to the ongoing genocide in Gaza, and how, actually, these beautiful, utopian pluriversal worlds existed in every single one of those encampments. They had their own mutual aid networks. They had their own little community gardens. They had free libraries. They had communal meals every day, like they were modelling these pluriversal worlds in those tents. And it is possible for them to exist, and they do exist all the time. It's just that to be able to bring everyone on board, obviously, that's going to take something very different, yeah, and I guess at some point you have to be like, do how like, what is do we need everyone to be on board? Or do we need to really just put all our efforts into creating those worlds for

Adam

ourselves? I think obviously the answer is closer to the latter. There's the second one, because I think, you know, when I think about dying, which is, you know, at least several times a week, not in a sort of, like, active sense, but just because it's like, it's there, it's present, it's gonna happen. It's an option. I think, you know, you have to think, like, Okay, well, like, what was my What were my values, what was my responsibility? Like, what was my role? What did I do? All of that stuff. And you know, the fact is that I can sign up today to to proceed as, like, head on a futurism collective, like, Vision manifesto thing. But like, and I could spend the rest of my life trying to get seven. And 5 billion people to do it. And maybe if I die in 40 years time, then I'll have spent 40 years doing that. And maybe we'll get close, we'll be closer to that 7.5 billion. But like, I mean, God knows how the method, what methods I'd have to do in order to, like, do that, but like, but I but being real, I'm a realistic person. And like, that's not going to happen. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm just, frankly, not that charismatic. So therefore, like, what was, Who do I have this responsibility to obviously, it's to myself, but it's also like, what is my arena, and my arena and the people that I interact with, the loved ones around me who I live with and work with and hang out with and have sex with, and all of that and and it's really about, like, if I can die thinking, like, well, I did this pocket method that you're talking about within this, then that would be pretty damn Good, actually. So like, that's what I've got. And I think you've given me a way of thinking about that and kind of trying to make that happen within a realistic way. That is great. So yeah, thanks for that.

Prishita

Absolutely. I mean, it's overwhelming to try and have, like, obviously also, like, Who do we think we are? Like, it's, you know, it's overwhelming and ridiculous in some ways, to think that we could have changed the world in this way. But actually, if every single one of us Yeah, thought about the connections that we currently have, which are quite a lot of people, yeah, and not and non people, and interacted with the the so I kind of refer to it as pleasure mycelia in my book. Yeah, you know the mycelium that connect us all like the mycelium of fungi, but it's the it's like the one the connections that are built and strengthened through the pleasure seeking behaviours that we engage in together.

Adam

Yeah,

Prishita

if we build those pleasure mycelia between us and our connections and strengthen them and pull on them and tug on them and play with them and like that is a lot of people. I mean, you know, and if every single one of us did that, we genuinely would, I think we could create pockets of future, of that, of queer, of hedano, futuristic queerness, like all the time.

Adam

And basically, I think what I'm what you're saying there, is we will all end up being cute little mushrooms that just pop up out on the forest floor. And I think if that's not a goal for queer futurism, I don't know. I don't know what. I don't know what is like. You know that is gay agenda, don't we all want to be cute, little, tiny, but slightly poisonous mushrooms that pop up,

Prishita

yeah, and pump out our spores all over. Yes, let's

Adam

get those spores going. Okay, appreciate it. This has been such a great conversation. I'm really grateful. I think, as a sidebar, I'm going to take away the fact that we should do another episode in the future, which is about evolutionary biology, and the kind of like myth busting around how we use things insights from evolutionary biology, which is a completely legitimate discipline, and how we, like, really fuck up how we think about sex and how we talk about sex because of things from that. So I kind of think, like, that's a future episode that I'd love to do with you, if you're up for it. Yeah, that'd be great. And then, in the meantime, everyone needs to buy your book roses for hedon. That's how I'm saying it. I don't know how you pronounce that word, because it's like, is it hedon? Is it hedonne? I think it's hedonne, ancient Greek. Yes. So Roses for Hedone is out now, and it's pretty awesome. So thank you very much for writing that book and having this conversation and giving me lots to think about.

Prishita

Thank you so much. It's been fantastic.

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode!

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX - the idea or this podcast!

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x

Listen to this episode on your podcast player of choice.

Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith.

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex?

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome.

Let’s go!

What’s stopping us from flirting?

My guest in this episode is Alice McKee, a playwright and documentary maker. Alice thinks we can build a world where people can have the sex they want if only we were all better at flirting. Are we too full of nerves and anxieties that we can’t even make a goofy joke?

In our conversation Alice drew on her work as the writer of a play called Perverts. It’s set in a queer sex club and has played at three theatres over the past few years. The main character is down to f*ck, but less available for more emotionally vulnerable activities like flirting and love. So we had a fascinating chat about all this — including how it works specifically for lesbians, how writing exposes our vulnerabilities, and what Alice is working on next...

Adam

Alice McKee, welcome to Free Sex.

Unknown Speaker

Hello, hi, nice to be here.

Adam

Thanks so much for joining. Now I want to get into a lot of topics, I think, with you. But first of all, my big question of the day is, as always, how can we build a world where people can have the sex that they

Alice

want? So I think my current thing is, I think people need to get better at flirting, and this might be a specifically kind of a lesbian condition, I don't know, but I find there's a lot of dykes who exclusively call themselves sapphics, who don't flirt. They're like, only they stare at women from across the bar, and it's like, if we're both just staring at each other, like, Who's flying the plane. And I think that has to do with, I think that has to do with, like, people needing to get over their sort of neuroticisms a little bit, because inherently, sex is kind of awkward and weird, and there's the possibility of rejection, and so if you were sort of tangled up in all these neuroticisms, you can't even be like, Can I buy you a drink? So yeah, that's sort of what I think we as a society needs to get better at. But me, personally, I work through those neuroticisms By writing about them.

Adam

Okay, I see So, okay, so writing might be a solution, which we could explore later, right? Yeah,

Alice

I don't think I can, like, make everyone better at flirting, but I can at least make myself better, maybe by writing

Adam

interesting. Yeah. Well, okay, so let's just go into the problem a little bit more than the because you said it's basically poor flirting, but you think that that's grounded in neuroticism and things like anxiety. So yeah, say a bit more about that, like, what are they exactly? Where do they come from?

Alice

Yeah, well, I think it's, it is just scary to put yourself out there. You know to it's the possibility of rejection and. And I what something I explore in my writing is specifically my neuroticism around sex as a lesbian, because as a lesbian, from a very young age, I was made to feel like a pervert, like even, even just something as simple as, like, holding hands of a girl, felt really like I knew inside I was lesbian, and I was like, this is gonna give me away, right? Yeah, and like, it's things as simple as, like, literally, like doing up another girl's backpack. I remember being like, oh my god, she's gonna think I'm such a creep. So that's kind of that's my personal neuroticism that I do think a lot of other lesbians and probably gay people in general deal with and writing about that, I don't know how much it helps. I feel like it would feel really grandiose for me to be like everyone who comes to see one of my plays is healed, and they never feel neurotic or anxious ever again. But I think it helps you to recognise stuff, and you feel a little bit less alone, like I know when I read like Alison Bechdel comics, the Dykes to Watch Out For, and they are all neurotic dykes who are, like, totally caught up in their own heads. It makes me feel like I'm able to recognise my own behaviour, I'm able to laugh at it, and it's not such a big deal.

Adam

Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does make sense. And I'm thinking about the way that we meet and interact nowadays, and how like, because you mentioned earlier at the top, like the two lesbians looking at each other across the bar. So first of all, I'm thinking, like, where is this lesbian bar? Because there are not very many of them, right? Yeah, the theoretical lesbian bar. Plus, you know, like things, like dating apps and like, other ways that people are meeting each other. And it makes me always think about that really interesting statistic that, like, I don't remember the exact statistic, and I'm not going to, boy, guess it or make it up, but like, years ago, the majority of people met their partners through work like this was like, you know, like in my mom and dad's era, like the 70s and the 80s and stuff like that. People met their partners through work. I think that's probably more likely for, like, straight people than queer people, yeah, probably, but, but that still was the majority of people, right? Whereas now it's, it's not work as a central place. It is things like dating apps and still, like personal introductions, like is still like, not like in a formal sense, but you know, like meeting friends, meeting people through friends and stuff, is still very common. So I'm just thinking about all these different ways that people like meet and interact, and how that's changed over time, and how that might have changed the flirting landscape. What do you think?

Alice

Yeah, no, I think it definitely has. Like, I think the best flirting is often, like, kind of unexpected, which would make sense for that like statistic around people meeting at work. And I think, like, I Yeah. Like, when you're going into a dating app, it's like, you're, you're starting the conversation with, like, we know what we're here for. Yeah, that's true, yeah. And yeah, it's like, when, yeah, I yeah, I don't know, because it's been, it's been a while since I was on the app, so, like, I don't know what the state of the world is there, yeah, yeah. Not to brag, but yeah, I think when there's when it's sort of live and in the room and it's two people, like in a space together, it's very different from when it's like, when you can really think about what you're saying in a message before you send it, whereas when you're flirting in real time, you say just the stupidest shit, like you really just, like, embarrass yourself,

Adam

but which is the reason why people are nervous to do it? Probably, yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. But you just said something that that that is the best, so that's better. So how is it that something where the stakes are so much greater, and you're much more likely to, like, fuck up and make an embarrassment of yourself. How is it that that is still better?

Alice

I think it's better, because there's a sort of a quality of vulnerability between the two people, or more people, where you're both kind of putting yourselves out there, if you're both flirting, but then I suppose most of the time it's kind of one person has to make the move first. I don't know that's a difficult question.

Adam

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to put you on the spot.

Alice

Yeah, no, sorry, didn't have a very helpful answer that one, sorry.

Adam

What is the kind of flirting that you have really enjoyed, either like producing or receiving. What makes a good flirt? What makes a good flirt?

Alice

this is what people are dying to know. They're always clamouring at my door. They're just wanting to know the answer to this. I I think it's like when, oh, let me think.

Alice

I think it's when it's super confident, okay, when it's quite cocky. Like, there's something about cockiness and like, maybe that's because we're so insecure and vulnerable and freaked out that to have someone swoop in and be like, Hey, bro, I like you. Like, yeah, it's really like soothing in a way, yeah,

Adam

I wonder whether that's like a good I mean, I don't think we necessarily want to start making like a flirting tips podcast series, but maybe like, but like, these things are those two things are connected, aren't they? So like, the anxiety, the nervousness, and then the supreme confidence. I like, I wonder whether like as a tip for flirting, whether, if you're gonna, if you like fancy someone, even just like a little bit, or you don't, you haven't even had a conversation with them yet, but you just kind of into them. Like, if you are like, if you come over, like, initially as like, really confidently into them and attracted to them, then that could potentially, like, be the salve to their neuroses and their anxieties, because they'll be like, Oh, wow, this person's into me. But then also, on the other hand, it might make it even more anxious. I don't know. Why are we such anxiety balls? I

Alice

know. I don't know. I think because what I notice is that a lot of lesbians are afraid to even look at a woman, like in a suggestive way, and they're totally kind of paralysed by the like possibility of flirting. And it's really not they're like, a lot of people I talk to, they're like, Yeah, I just don't do that. I wait for people to come to me, but it's like, well, it seems like a lot of you are doing that. And I feel like you need to, you can't. Like every you're like, perfect person might also be waiting for you to come to Yeah, and I think it is a lot to do with just the fear, and like, I think you kind of need to get over ourselves, a little bit like, it's just like, you need to be okay with it just being a bit weird. Like, yeah, yeah. Just Yeah, going, not necessarily very well, and it might be just really awkward and horrible, and you might go home and just cringe, but you know, worst things have happened. I mean, yeah, yeah, exactly. What's the worst that's gonna happen? Yeah,

Adam

I think that's probably why alcohol is so popular, right? I mean, there's that famous post of like alcohol helping people have sex since 1732 or whatever it is, I wonder whether this, some of this stuff, is like fed into the creation of the character Katie in your play Perverts, which I want to ask you about and talk about, because it feels like that character who is kind of giving the audience like a long internal monologue, but it's a mixture of internal monologue about what's going on in their head, but also dialogue with like other characters that are in that they're sort of interacting with, but it's just there. On the stage, giving it to the audience and like, so you've got this like internal logic going on in in that character's head, and so you can hear and sense the anxieties, including the ones that are unsaid, right? So that's just like a mini, like a tiny, like mini, little insight into that play, from my reading of it, just because now, because it made, because it connected to the thing that you were saying there about that anxiety and stuff. So maybe is that, can you say a bit more about what was feeding into creating that show in that character? Yeah,

Alice

of course. So I that Perverts came from a trip to the sex club, a local one in Bristol. I won't name names, because it wasn't very good. And I it was the first time I'd really gone to a sex club with any kind of intention, like before, it had always kind of been like, you know, after pride, you end up places, and you're like, wait a minute, there's a lot of chains and whips around. Where am I? So this was the first time I'd really gone in, like, knowing what was going on. Had had conversations with my partner beforehand. We were all like, Yeah, let's go with our friends. And like, from the moment we got there, it was just an awful experience. Um, like, my my partner got, um, told off by the guy on the door for not being dressed revealing enough. Um, oh, wow. Which I felt was, like, really odd, because I don't know my personal opinion, I think, like, the mystery, maybe I'm very Victorian, but oh yeah.

Adam

Like, little bit of having things, just having things to take off as well, is hot, yeah, to

Alice

take off, yeah. So I was already like, oh God. And then we got in and, like, if everything was so it felt very stilted. It felt like I was in a room full of people that were waiting for people to come over and talk to them, and I it felt very awkward. And it just I kept thinking like how unsexy everything was, and I kept going to the toilet and just typing in my notes app things that were, like, weird and annoying and strange about it. And it was start. So the play started as just like a Notes app ran that I was like, saving just to talk to people about afterwards. And I think the first thing I wrote down was, there's nothing less sexy than the cloakroom queue at a sex party, which ended up being the first line of the play. And so when I first wrote it, and I really just workshopped it as a rant at the pub, but when I first wrote it, it really was kind of just a rant more than anything, of like, What the hell are we doing? And, yeah, it was just kind of a comedy, nothing too deep to it really, like I just kind of wanted to, like, make fun of the queer sex scene a little bit um, but this is

Adam

why you don't invite writers to your sex parties, because they like skulk away in the toilet making nos and then, and then, basically, pull out these one liners in the pub afterwards and ruin them forever. Yeah, exactly ruin them for everyone else.

Alice

It's like that meme of the person in the corner at the party. I'm like, they don't know. I'm gonna write a play about this. Yes. Um, so, yeah. But then, like, as I, as I continued to write about it. I kept thinking, like, Why? Why? Like, why do I feel like this? Because clearly, a lot of people are enjoying it. You know, lots of people will have seem to be having a good time there. It's like a popular enough night, like I was like, What the hell is my problem? Which is what I asked at the start of writing anything, and I started to think about these anxieties and sort of hang ups I have as a lesbian around any kind of connection or just relationships with women, even completely beyond the realm of like romantic or sexual relationships, like literally just women I see on the street, like, why am I worried about them thinking I'm a pervert? Yeah,

Adam

when you say that, does it? Do you mean that you have that little like mini bird brain voice with regard to women as a....to men or other people that you see on the street, like this is a particular thing, because you also said, like, as a lesbian. So it's, I just wanted to clarify that it's about like, your fears and anxieties about what women think of you and think of

Alice

you. Yeah, it was that was specifically what I was exploring with this. Was like how I felt about how other women felt about me and like, why that was so, why that affected like everything in my life, like my friendships, my working relationships, like, Why did I have this like, little thing at the back of my brain that was holding me back from just relaxing a bit and getting a bit closer to people, yeah. So, yeah, that was all the stuff that was swirling around. Yeah.

Adam

Okay, no, that's, it's, it's really interesting, and especially just connecting that to some of our other things earlier on, about flirting, because I think we're getting into the depths of it, right? And that's the thing that the play does, and that writing can do in general, is really start to like, really dig down at like, what is it going on in our heads about things like anxiety and things like, Am I sexy enough? And why doesn't that person look at me like I want to, why want them to look at me? But then maybe they don't even know that I'm looking at them like you can really dig down into these, into these things.

Alice

Yeah, yeah. I think that's like what I was trying, trying to challenge myself to think about, because it's very easy for me to just sort of, and this is what the character does, is walks in and is like, this isn't sexy. These guys are annoying. And all of my ex situationships are here. They need to get over it. And I think by the end, without, I don't know, spoiling the play, she's challenged to sort of address how these issues she's having a sort of,

Adam

like, a like, a direct result of her kind of yeah fear. Basically, yeah, yeah. She's kind of forced to realise, and least we are the audience, are forced to, like, see that it's because of how she is. It's quite like, I don't want to say damning of the character, but it really just say, like, you know this is, yeah, like, a lot of this is down to you, but then a lot of those things are because of, like, Well, some people would say a lot of those things are because of structural things and political and social things that, like, have formed that character into who she is.

Alice

Definitely, yeah, no, I don't like I think it's I tried to like always. Even if I'm writing a character who I just fundamentally disagree with, I try and sympathise with them and find a way to relate to them. And obviously related to the character of Katie a lot, and I do think she is 100% a product of her environment. And I think part of the problem is that, because there's this sort of under, like, there's this sort of unspoken thing now, of like, we did gay rights, it's done, you know, I mean, like, it's like, we figured it out, like we could, like, at least in the sort of cis het world it that's seen as an issue that's not as prevalent anymore. So it went Katie's part of this generation that that is like post Section 28 like post like, you know, came of age as gay marriage was legalised. Like, kind of hasn't had material blockages to living like as a lesbian, but there's this overhanging culture that's existed for the last century, or however long, like that is, is still there, but because it's unspoken, it's like hard to see it as anything other than just the way things are. And that's why you get these people that are just like, oh, women flirt by just staring at each other, just like, no waiting. Yeah, do that because we, like, weren't allowed to flirt with each other, yeah, yeah.

Adam

And then there's the then there's the even bigger, broader things, like about how the economics of the situation, of our of our lives, like whether you can afford to go to the lesbian bar or the sex club, or when you're there, are you thinking, actually, I'm I have to. Leave by 10 because I have to. I know that I have to be up at six because of my job. And I can't not have that job, you know. And then, like, also broader things to do with sexism and how women are like, not supposed to look or behave in certain ways, for fear of being like, you know, cast as one thing or another. Or, in your case, like you said, a pervert and these. So there's like, there's kind of like, capitalism and and sexism at play here, which is obviously intersection, intersecting with the gay rights stuff that you were just talking about, but it's also very broader and governs, like everything. And I just thought there's a line in the show which is like, which is really, I mean, I actually laughed out loud, but it's also really hot, heartbreakingly sad at the same time, which is like, the line is something like, love is the most degrading thing a person can do. And I was like, I laughed out loud, like, with a like, nervousness. Because, like, I There are most days, I sort of basically believe that myself, but then I have this like, like, this wave of like sadness, that that I do believe that, and that, like, where is that belief come from in me, and what does that mean About my like capacity? I suppose to to and my relationships and friendships, like what you were saying, how those were all flowing in as well. So, yeah, like, it's really quite broad and deep at the same time these things. And I think it's, yeah, it's really great that it does that. Yeah, I'm just thinking about that thing of like, love, loving someone being the most degrading thing that you can do, and how, what does that mean that like people are, what like your character has that viewpoint, and that a lot of us sometimes have that viewpoint, like, what does that say about us?

Alice

I think it's interesting, because she, in that moment, is saying it out of, she's terrified of being vulnerable in a relationship. She has no problem going to the club, picking up, picking up a girl like she has no problem kind of putting herself out there sexually, but she kind of has a huge problem with her friendships, with her almost relationships with anything kind of deeper than that. And I think in that moment, she's kind of like she's terrified of that, because it is degrading when you're vulnerable in that way, it can feel degrading. It can feel like humiliating and like, like, I feel like everyone has some point in the most in a relationship where they're like, who am I? Like, what am I doing? Like, yeah,

Adam

you lost yourself. Become this person, yeah, yeah.

Alice

But at the same time, I think I, I see that as kind of a good thing. I think degrading isn't the what it really is, I think it it's just vulnerable, and it requires vulnerability, which obviously requires a sort of stripping away. And I think to me, it's like it's a good thing to get to that point of feeling like you, like, stripped everything away. It's scary. Obviously, like, you know, obviously, if someone's actually degrading, you get out. But like, yeah, yeah. But like, what I mean is, like, if it's just, like a feeling of intense vulnerability, and, you know, you feel like you're just kind of rolling over and showing your like, soft belly, like that's, yeah, probably good. I don't know, in my opinion,

Adam

well, something that the show does is to do that exposing, because we see Katie being exposed in that way, and she sort of has that realisation as well. So I guess I just want to also broaden out from Perverts and ask you as a as a writer, and presumably, like a reader theatre goer, you know an audience of right, an audience member of writing as well, like, what are your thoughts on how writing can help us to build a world where people can have the sex that they want? Um, what is it about writing?

Alice

Yeah, um, I mean, it's such a kind of like cliche, but like, yeah. When you read something that was written several hundreds of years ago and someone had the exact same thought that you have, I don't know what it does to you. I don't like people say, you know, makes you feel less alone. I think it can also, yeah, it's kind of comforting, and it can also sort of shock you, I think, like if you've never really addressed that thought in yourself, it can sort of shock you into thinking about it, for lack of a better term, it does hold up a mirror in one way or another. And what was really interesting is, even though, when I wrote Perverts, I was still kind of in denial, I think about the serious side to it, of the serious themes of it. And when I, like, we put it on and like, people would, like, audiences would be laughing, laughing, laughing, and then they'd be silent. And I was like, Oh yeah, it's tanking. And then wow, like, after, and afterwards, people would come up to me and they'd be like, crying. And I was kind of like, what the hell like I was, what, this is a funny play. What are you doing? Cheer up. Love, yeah. And I Yeah. I think for me, like writing about something, for me, is kind of like an exorcism. And I think it can kind of do the same thing for an audience. Like, you know, we've all gone to see a film or something and walked out feeling really raw, like, yeah, it was really, really good. Like, he's, yeah, a fucking great super hero movie. And you walk out like, yeah, like, you're super hero. Like, it does, like, have a really deep effect on you, yeah, yeah. So yeah.

Adam

I mean, yeah. I mean, that's like, such a great clear rally cry for why writing is important and and it's not just the writing, it's the layers that go on top of the writing to convey that those ideas to other people, like whether it's the performers and the lights in the director, in the music in a theatre, or like those equivalent elements in a TV show, or whatever, right? It's like all of these things are, well, I guess we're talking about art and writing is often the like first, the first expression of the ideas and the themes and the stories. This show

Alice

was, this show was 100 cent like, improved massively by collaborating with people like I think it might have stayed a very shallow kind of comedy, if it wasn't for working with other queer people, like, it was basically just a team of five of us. And like, Sarah Fox, the director, really brought like, just completely changed it like, like, not as in, like, she was, like, let me rewrite that, but like, yeah, she made it mean a lot more than I think it would have meant if it was it just stayed, you know, in my like, in notebook,

Adam

it's one of those interesting things, like, theatre is such a collaborative art form, even though there's often just, like, the writer's name or The star's name above the door, or whatever that, like, it really is so collaborative. Because, you know, you might think you've done, you've written a character to have a certain kind of feeling, but then, like, the lighting director says, like, but actually, these lights don't that feeling. I can't get that in the lights. And so therefore it's not doing what you think it is. Because when I put the light on whatever it is, you know, there's something really, I mean, I'm such a big like theatre gal, and it, I wanted to make a connection to something that you said earlier, when you were talking about flirting, being about like two people having, like, an intimate connection, which has that vulnerability and that sense of jeopardy to it. And I was like, it sounds to me like you're describing a theatre. Yeah, that's true. There's the liveness to it, the Jeopardy, the fact that it's like bodies in a space, and a theatre can be just two people. It can be like one performer and one audience member, right? But like, yeah, yeah. It made me think about, what's the connection there between, like, the flirting point that you mentioned and the Working in the Theatre?

Alice

Yeah, is this like, risk, I guess, like, there's a such a huge risk every time you start a show. Like, I don't think. Like anyone ever starts a show and is like, this is gonna go great, we're not gonna have any problems. Is there's always such a like, you know, are the audience going to respond to it like, like, the lighting cues gonna work. Like the audience is a huge thing. Like, I think that's why I like theatre, because I I mean, first of all, very nice to have people laugh for your jokes. You know, I highly recommend, if you're insecure, write a play, man like, it feels great, but also they they laughed at different things every night, and they responded to different things every night. And there were things that were literally just, I didn't even write as jokes. I was just like, this is something that happened in my life. I'll use it in the play. And people laughed it and like, I was almost like, okay, slow down, personal experience. But you know, that's the same as flirting, like you're throwing stuff out there and, yeah, you don't know what you're gonna get back. Yeah, you're just kind of grabbing around in the dark, for lack of, yeah,

Adam

like, I wonder whether we are more confident or less confident, like now, than we were 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago, 3000 years ago, In terms of, like, spotting someone and wanting to chat to them, slash, maybe have sex with them. Like, literally, if the goal, I mean, I know there's not the right way to, like, walk through the world, but if the goal is to have sex in general or with, like, a specific person, like, are we more or less confident now than we have been in previous times? And I think that it's probably ups and downs, and then including things like you said about how, how like, well, it was, like, really dangerous for like, two women to make that known to each other, for example. And it still is dangerous in lots of places, right? But what do you think about the long term view of confidence with sex as the intention?

Alice

Yeah, I don't, yeah, that's, I mean, I'd be interested to kind of, like, I'm fascinated by flirting, like I would love to know, like, how much flirting has changed over the years. Like, I'd love to know, like, what the ancient Greeks were doing, they seem to kind of have it figured out. Yeah, from what I can say, Yeah, I think I don't know. I mean, another thing that is sorry I keep turning away from the mic, another thing that I think was an unintentional kind of thing in the play is that Katie's obviously drinking the whole time, and he's banging lines of COVID in the bathroom, and like that is obviously the shortcut to confidence. And I, when I wrote this play, I think, like, I would always like, have a glass of wine, even just when I was writing it, like, yeah. And now I'm sober, and I think I have a completely different look at the play, and I can see this other level of neuroticism that I wasn't aware of at the time, where it's like this, these shortcuts to confidence that we take that can actually just make us perform different, like we're not ourselves. I think like, yeah, there's this kind of, I know I definitely felt like, oh, I had to be myself. I've got a drink, like, and I think a lot of people feel the same way, but I don't know, I look back at like, when I was drinking, I'm like, I don't know who that was, yeah, that's like some weird girl, yeah. So I don't know it's different for everyone, obviously, but I think it's like, this shortcut that actually is does, isn't really a shortcut, you know?

Adam

Yeah. Well, then if we were to think about shortcuts for flirting and maybe some, you know, some social engineering, or some policies or something like that, if we're trying to build our world where people can have the sex that they want, when they do want to have the sex, but they just can't bring themselves to say more than two words to the person they fancy. What would be those shortcuts or policies like, do we teach flirting in relationships and sex education to 15 year olds?

Alice

I don't know. I don't know if it can be. Thought, I think that the biggest thing that I think would be really helpful would be having more just like talking exclusively about lesbians, but like, I like, I would love for there to be more lesbian spaces. I'd be I'd love for there to be more spaces for everyone. Yeah, selfishly, I'd like more lesbian spaces. I think that, what kinds of spaces? Well, obviously there are a few bars, like two maybe left in the UK, but it would, you know, it would be nice to probably have some sober lesbian spaces. I don't know what they would be, and I think maybe we need to be a little bit better at making those ourselves. I think so, you know, I sort of say stuff like that with no intention of trying to make it happen, right? I'm like, someone should do that, yeah. And maybe, maybe in the past, lesbians were a little bit better at being, like, proactive about that stuff. I don't know. Maybe it's partly because they, like, were up against a bigger sort of threat that they were a bit more active. I don't know. But I think just having places, not even like exclusive, because I'm not super. I think as soon as you get exclusive, that's where you get into problems, where you know the government are defining what a woman isn't Yeah, like, yeah. I think just like a place where it's just like lesbian, not lesbian night, like lesbian nights, every night? Yeah, yeah, I don't know, yeah.

Adam

And then finally, what are you working on now, now that you got perverts out, and it may still be on the stage again in the future, tell me if it's going to be that'd be great. But otherwise, what else are you not you working on,

Alice

not imminently, but I'll let you know if it is. I

Adam

mean, it's had three runs already, right?

Alice

Yeah. So it was originally in Cardiff as, like a two night thing with different actress married diamond, and then it was at Vault Festival, and then it was at King's head. And then it had, like a proper headline run at King's head. So that was, yeah, it was very nice. That's

Adam

amazing of them. So then, what are you working on? Something else at the moment?

Alice

Yeah. So since then, I've been doing a bit more screen writing. But at the moment I am currently writing this has nothing to do with sex. I'm afraid I'm currently writing a play about someone who wants to kill the president. Oh, great,

Adam

a particular President.

Alice

Well, I'm gonna leave it a little open in the script, just so that, okay, don't get a terrorism charge. Um, but, yeah, that's, that's what I'm currently doing. But I'm sure I'll find a way to make it about sex, like, I don't know how I'll figure it out.

Adam

Interesting. I feel like I always do, though. And is it, is it? I mean, it's quite a dark, serious thing, but I imagine it's also funny.

Alice

Yeah, it is comedy. It's kind of taking the piss out of kind of casual activists, which I coupe myself in, by the way, yeah, okay, just like, the sort of Yeah. It's very similar to Perverts in that I've just, like, got a laundry list you've got me want to go on? Yeah, I've got beef again, and okay, like, I'll figure out the serious spot a bit later. Well,

Adam

this is a really good way to trick yourself into writing something and getting to the end of writing it is just to be like, What is my beef like? Just very first draft just be like, I've got beef, and here it is on the page, 100 pages. Let's go genuinely

Alice

like, I think it's the only way I can write, yeah, I think it's like, I have to, like, have the motivation of just like, I have been like, writing it in spurts where I'm like, right? I just go home and type, but maybe one day I'll write something, whoo, she's in love and not hate. But currently, that's my thing.

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode!

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX - the idea or this podcast!

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x

Listen to this episode on your podcast player of choice.

Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith.

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex?

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome.

Let’s go!

Can men use AI to learn how to seduce women?

My guest in this episode is Georgi Dimitrov, founder of an AI platform that helps men to generate a fake woman, and then chat to her. Georgi knows that a lot of straight men struggle with texting, chatting, dating, and sex, and building relationships...

But having spoken to Georgi I’m not sure he’s got the right answer. As you’ll hear in the interview, Georgi says Fantasy.ai can be a place where men can practice seduction, without stakes, fear or shame. But it sounded to me like the platform’s business model and AI model don’t challenge the sense of entitlement to women that many men have, don’t help men to listen to women, and don’t create realistic women. His all-male team also could undermine the labour of women in the adult industry.

I’m sharing the episode with you because Georgi says he has an answer for how to build a world where people can have the sex they want. I don’t think it’s a good answer, but what do you think?

Adam

Georgi Dimitrov, welcome to Free Sex. Thank you for joining me today.

Georgi

Thank you for the invitation. I'm thrilled to be here and looking forward to the interview.

Adam

Yeah, well, I have to ask you first, how can we build a world where people can have the sex that they want. What do we need to do?

Georgi

For me building a world where you can have free sex. It's not certain only about the costs. It's about the freedom to share your deepest fantasy, to have a freedom of from shame, from judgement and from performance anxiety as well. So you need to be living in the world where you can make your fantasies become a reality. Essentially,

Adam

okay, right backs, yes. And you've you co founded this, this platform, fantasy i and we will get to talking about that and what that can do for for to address this issue that you're talking about there, but I want to explore that issue a little bit more with you. So what do you what's your analysis of that issue and why there is the need for that kind of world that you're talking about?

Georgi

Well, personally, I see that I have been in the adult industry for quite a while now, and I have been managing multiple businesses that, essentially, I would say, help people express themselves and their freedom for sex. And I'm seeing how people have kind of different needs. They have different desires, and even like the most successful people, let's say even worse, doctors, like people from all kind of traits and professions to people who are let's say normal clerks or builders. Doesn't really matter. Everybody has the need for for sex, and everybody has their own fantasies. So I believe that we need not only the technology to kind of progress further and express ourselves, but also the need to have a really a judgement free space where we can do what we like without anybody judging us and telling, oh, maybe you are a bad person because you like something like this, or this is this does not fit more the norms of the society. And I believe that it's it's needed. And essentially, sex is one of the basic needs of humans, and not only about the reproduction part of sex, but also the satisfaction part of it, because this is what people actually like,

Adam

right? And you've obviously got a long background in the industry, so I'm interested in what some of the specifics are that you've encountered in terms of, like, the the fantasies that people have, or the needs that they have and how they are not really they're often they're not met, basically that people can't find a way to manifest them. What are the some of the issues that you found there? Yeah,

Georgi

so before starting fantasy, AI, I was managing a very big OnlyFans agency. We had over 60 models who started, literally in the start of the Onlyfans, which was 2019 Onlyfans was not that trendy. Nobody knew about it. We're one of the first we're managing really famous adult stars, and we were managing all the chats. Obviously, this is, I guess it's no longer a secret that most of the successful only fans models. They cannot chat with all their fans themselves, so they're using a lot of agencies, chatting services, etc. And I have seen a lot of things. So most of the most well selling item that's on only fans are custom videos. And this custom videos can go little bit crazy and loud. I have seen, I have seen girls do some crazy stuff by requests from users, and they're by no means free. Like podcasts, they're highly, let's say, paid to make this the stuff, but it's essentially like different things, like some of the examples that comes to mind. I'm not gonna say which models, etc, but I I remember people liked for the girls, let's say to dress like a cow, start moving, or shout their names or other different crazy, crazy things. And right? That's okay, because these are the things that turn them on. And essentially this. Uh, idea of creating your deepest fantasy, uh, merge into a new with the development the AI technologies, and actually the image generation of the AI technologies, the chat, we saw a niche that can actually be really, really interesting. So I'm one of the co founders who started with a platform named dreamgf. We were literally the first one on the market to offer an end to end experience to the user, from creating the girl, building her character, her appearance, her boob size, her breast size, her ass size, her hair, her eyes, everything now the chat of how she'll be speaking wife. Would it be a male character? Would it be a school girl character? And essentially, we made it possible for the users not to wait so much times from the only fans models, to create the content or to answer to them, we created the same kind of experience for the fraction of the cost. So here I can really use the term free sex, because creating something with AI costs a lot less, like times less, than the usually what you would pay for an offence. I was just going to give you an example for a custom video or a custom photo. In on defence, you pay maybe a few $100 whereas with AI on our platform, you can literally subscribe for $12 a month, and you can create all these things. So really it's a fraction of the cost that you will do. So essentially, we manage to kind of solve the problem of the guys having to wait a lot of time. And essentially it's content on demand, like you want something like you want to see. I don't know a school girl in the bus, you just press generate, and after 20 seconds, the picture is there. So we're also working on the video. So it's something that it's very interesting. But I'm not gonna go too much in the in the details, yet

Adam

It is a very, yeah, very, very interesting technology, and like such a fast development as well, about how things have changed. I want to ask you a little bit more about the Onlyfans experience which led you to start creating the technology. Then, did you hear from men? And also, just to check, like, I guess it's primarily like heterosexual men, isn't it that those are the customers that you've mostly worked with, who and the models are women, yeah, and so, like, I'm curious to hear a bit more about, like, what, though, what you've heard from men about the things that you just started to talk about there, about, like, how long it takes for the content creator to make a custom video, like, how much the cost is involved, and how these and how those are the things that are influencing the amount of shame and judgement that people are feeling, which you mentioned earlier.

Georgi

So based on my experience. So a custom video, depending on the model, some models created the videos quite fast, within the same day. Some models a month. We want to create the videos. But it was always because I was also friends with the girls, and they were always Oh, like they're speaking quite Oh, you know what this guy wanted from me? That's absolutely crazy how he can want something from this. So I felt that this is not really a judgement free space, because in the end of the day, this is a work for the girl, like they create something. I can assure you that some of the things they didn't like and they felt quite we are doing. And I have heard stories from girls that some guys, they wanted them to pay so much money to do some really disgusting things, to be honest, like something that you wouldn't necessarily, necessarily do. But in the end of the day, like this is their work, and if the user pays and the body agrees, it's why they need to deliver what they agreed on. But in the end, it's still not a very judgement free space. And also know, like the chat themselves, they're managed in the end of the day. Because imagine a model cannot shop 24/7 like, it's not even possible to satisfy all their I would say, clients needs, because it's a platform. So I personally saw that it's better to kind of tell the people, okay, you're chatting with an AI rather than the real person. But this AI can, first of all, it will generate what you want. It's not gonna even understand because it's technology, if it's something bad or good. Like it's some as long as it's obviously legal, because we have, we have restrictions in terms of illegal content, obviously, but as long as it's a fantasy that you want to make a reality, our platform is there for you to make. But yeah, this is more or less how we came up with the idea,

Adam

how the idea came and so with the with the models that were questioning some of the things that the customers wanted, did you have you or other people that you know, is there, like a movement in the industry to try to say, like, Well, look, you absolutely, as a content creator, you don't you obviously you don't need to make every anything and everything that the customer wants. But also, like, you don't need to shame them. You just say, No, I don't want to do that, and then continue. You know, is there a movement around that, among the among the models and the women that do that kind of work to to not shame the customers.

Georgi

Yeah. So I believe there is because, like in the start when there was not too much competition, girls were saying, like, Oh, are you crazy? I'm never going to do that, even if you give me this money. But with time when there were too many girls coming in the industry and start to be much more competitive. The girls saw that their earnings declined, so in order to make more money, they might do things that they have never done before, like, right, yeah, and this is the natural process, because, like in the end of the day, like in the start, it's always easier, and as more competitors, or, in this case, models. Why come Onlyfans has few million creators already in the end of the day, the user, if he has his fantasy, he will find who will make it for him. Why more or later, like maybe he'll try one girl, she'll say no, second girl, third year, and then they'll just start replying Yes. So right, it's supply and demand. Like, yeah, demand for something, for sure, there will be somebody who supplied this as a, not even service, but as a fact, ish, let's say yeah, that yeah, the two could create for and

Adam

I was also wondering if there's, if there are ways, within the industry, maybe on the platform, like onlyfans, that I guess, can help like that, that help the men to, like, understand, like, what they're asking for. Like, yes, a fantasy is a fantasy. You're free to have that fantasy, but you are also asking, like a real person to do some work and to make that thing. And it's not only like, that's not okay and perfect just because that's your fantasy, like it is also involving another person, and it's her decision to do that, and everything like that. So I don't know enough about that, that world, to know if there are ways within the platforms that, like men, know that they're involving another person, they're hiring another person, and it's her decision, and it's her freedom. And it's, it's like that they, as the customer, have an ethical duty, I guess, to the model as well. Like, is there, you know? What do you make of that?

Georgi

Well, no, I guess before, like, usually how the natural process works is models will not start doing custom for a user unless he's he commits himself and spends some money. So to the money, yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's like a natural process, like when we used to do the sales like, imagine everything. It's like a sales script. Like, you start with small you start selling a picture for three dollars to then increase to 5, 10, 20, and when the user has committed enough financially, then you arise interest through from the model. And usually what happens is that some guys, they spend 1000s. I have seen people spend 1000s, 10s of 1000s, and some of them spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on the model. So when this well, this coat in the industry, when this whale wants something, you will do it, because otherwise you'll be afraid that you're gonna lose this revenue. And only it's a whale-

Adam

that that man is called a whale because he's like, so big, because he's spending a lot of money, so it's like, he's really, really big, exactly. Yeah. So, okay, okay, gotcha,

Georgi

yeah. So this is how we refer to them, like whales and VIPs. Also this another term. So if the VIP person that spends so much on your account wants to do something, you will do it, because otherwise he will just go and he'll go to the next girl. Feels gonna spend money there, because especially people who have a lot of, let's say financial means, I can guarantee you, they will find a way to satisfy their deep desires. And yeah, I have obviously, in onlyfans, it's it's not a dating site. It's forbidden to even write the word meet. It's against the terms of the conditions on the platform. But, but in general, like for each fan and creator relationship, the end goal of the fan is maybe someday he will meet with his dream creator. And I have, I have seen times that essentially, in the end, today, models and the fans, they they meet the thing. Now the trending topic of, let's say, Bonnie Blue, and what she's doing with all this, yeah, and this kind of things, like, it's a good business model. She makes millions on all the fans and people judge her there. She has a lot of hate, but she that's, that's essentially what feeds her success, essentially, yeah,

Adam

yeah. And then I guess I have another question. Just before we go into fantasy.ai in more detail, because I'm really interested to hear more about how it works and how you build the platform, because it's like science fiction. It's really interesting. But before we do that, the other thing you mentioned Bonnie Blue that, like the other, another kind of big conversation that society is having right now about this is about the relationship between black men and women, and you mentioned it earlier, about, like, the shame and the stigma that and the judgement that, like some men feel, and that might be for their because of their fantasy and their fetish, but also like it might be because they don't think they're attractive enough, or they don't have a good enough job, or they're just not, they're not like succeeding as as a Man in society. Enough like, this is a really common thing that people are talking about and that a lot of men are lonely because of these things. So I'm interested to know like, from your what's your like perspective on that debate about men, especially straight men, feeling like they're they're being left behind and judged by society, because that's also influencing their ability to have the sex that they want and the ways that we're talking about it. So,

Georgi

yeah, so personally, I believe that, let's say the the world, it's not fair to men in general, in terms of the sex that they want, in terms of having the fake sex, because for a man, it's much harder to get sex, rather than a girl, like, if you look at, let's say dating sites, like, I would say that 8% of the girls are interested around 20% of the men. So it's very hard, like to get the girl. And this are usually men not attractive. Some girls are attracted to physically good looking man. So this is part, but a lot of the girls, and especially, as I told you, I'm here, let's say currently in Dubai, and I see that here, it's not even about the looks. It's literally about the society change it. It's about the financial means of a man. So this, this is what are, what the girls are most attracted to. So a lot of the men, they have normal job, they have good salaries, they have everything, but it's too hard for them to find the perfect match. Let's, let's say, and I believe that it is for men a little bit, let's say, hard to have the first eggs that they want because of this, how the world could the world works, let's say, and for girls, it's easy, like, if you're if you're a girl of a dating site, you find a man. And if you have a fetish, I'm quite sure that it's very easy to to realise it. So if you're only interested in sex, it's fine you find somebody to to make your desires come true. But for men, you either need to be very physically attractive so you can attract the girls, or very financially attractive if you don't have maybe for personally, if I believe that if you don't have one of those features, then it would be very, very difficult to satisfy your fantasies and fetishes, right?

Adam

I see interesting. And do you, yeah? I'm just thinking I could keep talking about that for a long time, but I know we should change the topic slightly, but that, yeah, it just makes me think about how that's part of free sex is changing the society so that we are attracted to things that are not just about money or about looks, and because also the other side of this is that some, you know, I've heard from lots of women that they say that, well, dating is not easy at all. All for me, and I can't find the right man, because I often find men that behave badly or that they don't really listen to me, and those things as well. So it's interesting to hear like, how, like, everyone is, like, struggling with this question. So fantasy.ai, then you mentioned a bit about it earlier. It's how would you describe the vision for it? Like, really, what is it? What's the best version of it in the future that you, that you're that you're trying to build now? Yeah,

Georgi

so we want to create a space where people can explore intimacy, connections and fantasies on their own terms. So essentially, our motto is your fantasy into reality. And it's just like a combination of the best parts of AI dating and imagination and removing the rejection and judgement, because our AI will not reject you. Obviously, we have some characters that, because this is also fake, ish for some people, fantasy, yeah, yeah. So this, we also have some characters that would reject you, would be very difficult, would be very, uh, bitchy, let's say yeah. But this

Adam

is, that's, if the customer wants it exactly.

Georgi

So it's, this is something that you can control. And the in general, the problem that we solve are people are lonely. A lot of, if you look at we have quite a few surveys. So a lot of the, let's say even the US, which is our main market, a lot of the US men are kind of lonely. They're curious or they are ashamed, so they don't want to jump straight forward into awkward real life conversations. Because if, let's say, a girl walks you, then you start thinking about it. I have, I have gone through this myself, so let's say a message, though she doesn't reply back, I feel stupid. Maybe I delete my message, then she literally ghosts me, and then I feel like either I'm not good enough or I'm not attractive enough. So it's this starts to make to question yourself, and with AI, this is never going to happen. Like, if you Our girls are quite attractive. Some of them, obviously, we have different types of girls, but some of them look like super models. And yeah, even they will respond to your messages and they will feel they will make you feel good. So

Adam

it gives, it gives it gives the men like, the confidence to have so you they have a conversation where a girl who they fancy or a woman who they fancy is like, like talking to them and treating them kindly and answering their questions and sharing about herself. And then that gives the men the confidence to then hopefully go and do that with other people. Well, well, with actual people. Yeah. So

Georgi

for me, like, if you look at how I would position AI in general, so let's say porn is static. Dating is exhausting, because it takes a lot of your time, energy and sexting with strangers, it's risky. You don't know the outcome. So fantasy, it's the bridge between all of these things, and it provides, first of all, 100% customizable environment, safe, responsible and private. So essentially, the users are in control of the interaction, the pace and the tone and companions can't say no or push back. They can't play hard. It's kind of robotic submission with with emotional realism.

Adam

Okay, so, so if the aim is to help the men gain the confidence to have conversations in the real world and maybe go on dates in the real world, like are they, if they've been if their confidence has been built in The platform where the woman that they're talking to can't say no and has to follow the conversation that the man is following is, how is that a good training for them when they go and speak to real women who will and should have their own ideas in the conversation and be able to say no?

Georgi

Well, that's an interesting question. So first I'm gonna say that we also have some characters that are like aI dating coaches. So we train the model in such a way that we we say that this is how it can go. In reality. And obviously we we say that we are in AI, we say that all the answers are obviously made up and based on your fantasy. So it's go gonna follow your rhythm. And this is not something that's gonna happen in reality. So we put this as a disclaimer, but also, like we have a character or an AI that you can kind of see, or you can send the the question to the boat, and it's gonna rate your question or the response that you're gonna get. Or you can ask about, like, I messaged this. I messaged this girl, this question. She answered like this. What should I say? Like, for example, yeah. So it depends. Like, imagine fantasy. It's like chatGPT for sex, let's say because in that you cannot discuss sexual topics, and we are obviously not competing with them. What we are doing, it's we're creating something additional that we have trained our models with specific data sets, with specific information that will kind of reflect your needs. And we are, we advertise it like this

Adam

as well. I see, yeah, I'm just thinking about the the women's needs as well, of like in especially, you know, the real world women that that men might then proceed to talk to and and how, I'm just wondering, does the platform give like the man like a false impression of what it is actually like to talk to women who have their own brains and their own desires and their own emotions and, you know, also legal context and everything.

Georgi

Yeah, that I believe is also it's kind of true, but it's also like this, let's say in porn, like in porn, if you go to Pornhub, you can see some crazy things happening. Let's say threesomes, gangbuck, stuff like this. This is not what happens in reality as well. So everything can give you a false understanding of your fetishes, like there is videos, and there is some things that you will never do in real life, but you can see them on the adult website. So I wouldn't necessarily say that. Let's say the need is there, and we just are feeling in the gap of the need. We're not, let's say, providing something that people are not looking into. And we're not saying that if you chat with the bot in a specific way, you should also do this in reality as well, right?

Adam

Yeah, yeah. And I guess that one of the I can see the analogy there with porn, because it it really does give people a false fantasy of what real life might be like and what real sex might be like, right? I guess the difference is, I don't think porn makers generally like sell their work by saying this will, like help you to have better sex. Some of the other features of the platform are that you have like clones of real influences. Yes, that's correct. So these are real people, and do they give you the rights to use their image and their their How does that work? Exactly? Yeah,

Georgi

so we have, we have contracts with influencers. Obviously, we pay them to purchase the rights. That's why we have, currently only a few. If we didn't purchase them, we're gonna have 1000s. But that's why we have a few models that work closely with and also they are on rev share, so they have their own link, and they earn as well, similar to on the fans based on the on how many people speak to them and imagine it. For if you are, let's, let's put yourself in their shoes. Like, if you're a content creator, you spent a lot of time to create the content. You spent a lot of time, let's say, if you are managing your account, yourself to chat, etc, and AI solve, solve these problems. Like, essentially, it takes around one hour for for the girl to prepare questions to answers, so we can train the large language model to respond quite so she would know where she's from, what she likes, etc. So we do an analysis, then she sends us around 50 photos. Then we essentially create a model, AI image model for her, and then she they takes care of everything. She doesn't need to do anything, and she earns passively from people speaking to her. Ai quo. So it's risk free, it's work free, essentially. And. It's we also give them a signing bonus, obviously, to get on the platform. And then our users can explore their fantasies with different influencers, and they can generate image straight away. So if you want to see now the girl with pink Lingerie in the bedroom, you just press a button, and after 10 seconds, you're going to have the image done. You don't need to wait for a few days to get it customly done by the girls. And also the girls use it to create content for themselves. Like, imagine how hard to always create new content, put all the makeup, prepare everything, the location needs to be good, etc. So I think those will also, in the future, use quite a lot of AI to help them with the content creation, because I believe that there is quite a bit of fatigue in terms of creating all this content if you do it for few years. So we are solving here a lot of problems.

Adam

I'm have any of the women said to you that they are either happy or sad or worried about the idea that they can just this could be their future, that they don't actually need to ever make any content again. Some people might not like that idea, because they like being active and doing work. And some people might say, This is great. I just give, I just give Georgi and their team, like, one hour of my time and some pictures, and then I'm retired. So what are the opinions from the women that are on that feature? There

Georgi

are mixed views, and some of the girls I like it a lot. They say, Oh, I want to, this is the future, and I want to be part of it. And they understand that some of them are more sceptical. They say, We don't like this. We don't believe in this. We have get, we have gotten a lot of rejects from girls who wanted to make a clone of so it it for me, personally, I'm sure that this is the future, and let's say it's not gonna happen in the next few years. But let's end the next 10 years, you would not be able to distinguish a real person from an AI generated one, especially with the videos, with everything like you, you would not know, especially in the social media, in the digital space in general. Like, yeah, besides, who is real and who is not like, so

Adam

do you think that we will still have real models in five years time or 10 years time? Like, will anyone want to do that work, especially when they have to pay like, rent, and the AI doesn't have to pay rent. So it's, you know, the AI is going to be a lot cheaper than the real model, plus the technology, will just mean that they just do everything. I

Georgi

believe that the best, let's say, men know what they want, and the best AI models will be built by men, and they will be promoted and marketed by men, because we, let's say, I have seen marketers, I have seen affiliates, and we understand how to reach more people. We understand what we want, etc. I would say that we can. Let's say, if you are young, good looking model, and this is usually when you make most of the money, let's say in online, fans, in online etc. So imagine if you can frame this image for a lifetime, like people will chat with the best version of yourself. Let's say, if I go back in time, I remember when I was kid. I was a not one kid like teenager. I was looking at Baywatch. Let's say Pamela Anderson in her prime, etc. So you can make this like, Oh,

Adam

I think Pamela Anderson's in her prime now, actually, she's, she looks amazing, and she's, yeah, she's, but anyway, please continue...

Georgi

And there's some which is in my head, but yeah, you what you can do with AI is you can make yourself with technology, like living endlessly like this. This is like, the best version of you. Yeah, and I believe that AI will change. I don't think it's gonna change people for sure, like, it's not going to change the content creators themselves, but 100% if you use the AI technology, you will be better than the person who is not using it. This, this is for sure. So better,

Adam

yes, you'll be a better a better person, a better creator, a better creator, right of the model, okay, yeah, earning more,

Georgi

getting more better marketing, etc. So if you use all this technology, you will perform better financially as mainly combustor, yeah, yeah, go if you're in this industry. Obviously, yeah,

Adam

I'm just wondering about the. That idea that you said there about men know what they want, and men build the AIs that you know help them to have what they want and everything. And also, I'm just wondering, is that in conflict with that issue of like trying to find a world where people can actually have the the actual sex that they, that they that they want, and that's on both sides. That's both people want having, like, finding a match, like you were talking about dating sites earlier, and it's about finding the match where two people who want the same sex can, can, can be together, come together, have and fuck together. And how I just wonder, like, when the platform, you know, it's built by men based on what men want, and then still, like, if that becomes more and more the way that people have sex, and let's face it, like, you know, everyone's wanking to that, to it that, like, you know, does that actually reduce the chances of actual sex happening eventually? Because it will be disappointing. It might cost you money to go on a date, and the people won't look like the models and the AIS that are like currently being built, you know, which are quite they have like, quite specific characteristics to them, that are that that are quite a narrow representation of Like, what women look like.

Georgi

Yes, I believe that ultimately this might be the case. And also I believe that maybe in the next 10 years, like we can actually build the robots like I think in Japan, they're already starting to be trendy. But I indented the actual physical robots and the actual physical robots that will look exactly like the real model. So I think if you want free sex in the long run, maybe this is the way to do it. We're far away from there, but the robots will become more human like and they will kind of obey what to your deepest desires and dreams. So they're not going to say no. And I think that it's going to be easier for men, because in the end of the day, you would want the easy thing, like going on a real date, going with a real girl, takes a lot of time, takes a lot of effort, takes a lot of investment as well. And some people men are not, maybe, prepared to to invest this. And it depends what you want, and it's it will be an interesting thing to observe in the long run. Yeah. So I'm not quite sure how, how this would develop, and if it's gonna have any long term impact on the free sex with real with real people, yeah, but this is something that I guess we'll need to wait and see how it plays out.

Adam

Yes, and also the same with with models as well. And content creators like you said that, you know, using the AI to make commissions will be a lot cheaper than than the models. And so does that change how the models make money and how they do their work? We will have to see, and also whether the models will kind of accept continue to like like, if the AI content really, really grows massively, I wonder how the how the real models will react to that at scale, you know, and because it's kind of removing a lot of their ability to work or to do certain jobs anyway,

Georgi

probably they'll need to move away from this industry. But also that there is another interesting thing that I have been observing, that it's quite astonishing, like the successful, even not the so much successful. But these Onlyfans girls are making quite a lot of money, like the average, let's say the top 1% which is not that hard to get, like girls there do like $10,000 a month, easily. I have been working with creators that make to 300 or some of some of the most successful creators do a million number. So imagine a girl making more money than, I don't know, brain surgery for a year, and go to university. And then for these girls, they just turn up 18, and some of the society is changing because. Like a girl turns 18 years old. Oh, I'm gonna make one offence. I make a lot of money right in the end of the day. So imagine these girls. For them, it's very hard to actually also find a man who would be financially able to keep up with them, because in the end of the day, a woman always wants a man that is more successful and that it's becoming very, very, very difficult at the moment, and I have seen this successful on defence models, cannot find a relationship. First of all, they cannot find a man that who support what they are doing, because in the end of the day, they are working the adult industry. On the other hand, they are making so much money that they cannot find enough successful men to match them. So we are heading into a very interesting part of the of the world, and I don't know what the future will hold.

Adam

Yes, people have very, very conflicting priorities. Let's say that, right? I think we should leave it there. This has been such a really fascinating conversation. I've gained a lot of insights into this industry and where it might be going, and I really appreciate you indulging my questions about about the industry and about your ideas, and yeah, the models ideas, the men's ideas, about how we can build this world where people can have the sex they want.

Georgi

Thank you very much for the invitation too, I hope you enjoyed it.

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode!

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX - the idea or this podcast!

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x

Listen to this episode on your podcast player of choice.

Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith.

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex?

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome.

Let’s go!

How can we educate people so they can enjoy their shameful desires?

My guest in this episode is Dug Gaines, who is a living legend. For 50 years Dug has been running the Foot Fraternity, a network for people who love feet. More specifically, Dug himself is into asthenolagnia, which is arousal from perceived weakness, vulnerability, and humiliation — often wrapped up in shame.

Having spent half a century helping others to explore their fetishes that are rooted in asthenolagnia, Dug has plenty to share. We talked about how society has opened up sexually since his adolescence in the 1960s, and yet how we still need to do more to help people who want to play sexually with humiliation and shame. It was an honour to interview Dug, and he’s such an entertaining speaker!

Adam

Thing. Okay, so it's recording now. Also what I will do just so you know, is I'll separately record a little intro about you. So I won't kind of do that now. Now I just say, Welcome to Free sex. How can we build a world where we can have that, and then we start from there. So, okay. Doug Gaines, welcome to free sex. It's great to have you today.

Dug

Oh, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. How can we build

Adam

a world where people can have the sex they want?

Dug

The one word would be through education. People know what this is about. People tend to fear that which they don't understand. So if we educate them and help them to understand it, they won't fear it anymore, and they'll ask questions, we'll explain it, and then acceptance will come, and both for the person who doesn't who needs to accept something different and the person feeling it, they will be self affirmed, if you will,

Adam

right? Okay? And you've got something specific, like a specific kind of sexuality and desire that you want to talk about, that that you want to make sure that people can have that education about. So what is that? It's got a kind of funky footsie, like name and word to it. So I want you to tell me that word and explain it to me in plain English.

Dug

Yes, most people don't have not heard of it, but it's called asthenolagnia. Okay. Now, steno lagna is basically a condition where people feel sexually aroused by humiliation and weakness. People with asthenolagnia feel aroused when they're humiliated, when they're teased, when they're verbally dominated or commanded to do embarrassing things. And they can also be aroused by fetishes, fantasies, images and films of others acting out these sensual, erotic humiliation domination scenes right now, the opposite of a steno LA, just on the side is you drop the A, and it's sthenolagnia, and that's a person who loves to power and loves to put someone in their place, and loves to humiliate and loves to dominate. But what I'd like to talk about is asthenolagnia, because this segues a great deal to the foot fetish world, because what better way to dominate someone than to put them under the foot and humiliate them and tease them and mock them? So that's where it segues into the foot fraternity.

Adam

And do you know how it's different from the other words that I've heard people use of dominance and submission and also sadomasochism. These are kind of all in the broad extended family tree of these kinds of words. So why is it that asthenolagnia for you is the word and not submission, for example,

Dug

because it incorporates other things like being totally humiliated, feeling totally weak to the master the top, the person controlling you to feel totally vulnerable to have them mock you. See, that's how it's different from that. It's the sensation of you are so weak, and I will pay you to be submissive to you. I will. I need even more humility. The more humiliation, the better, right? So therefore, it's kind of elaborating on just B and D and those general terms. This is much difficult to what we're really feeling and the intensity of the domination and being submissive to a person.

Adam

Okay, I got you, asthenolagnia. It sounds to me like a beautiful, summery island off the coast of Greece somewhere. Is it like a I mean, it sounds I'd like to go there. Is it? Is it a Greek word? Do you know anything about the word and where it comes

Dug

from? I know that I first found it in Gloria Graham's book on human sexuality, um, where she used the word it's all on the Encyclopaedia of unusual sex practices. Uh, I'm sorry that one was by Brenda Love, and she used the word first there. Now, that was done in 1992 right. Okay, and it mentions this condition, and it gives the explanation of this condition. I have heard it in a few other places since then, but it hasn't quite hit the mainstream yet. Yeah, I did several videos that are on YouTube, asthenolagnia, which totally describes it, and the people's response are, I get it now I know what it is, or that's what I'm really feeling. It's not just a simple foot fetish or deep it is more. It is completely being overwhelmed with that submissiveness to being controlled or being made to feel embarrassed or weak,

Adam

When you found that word in 1992 How did that change your understanding of yourself?

Dug

What it did is it gave it better, a better explanation of I'm not. This is not just a general term. This is really very specific, and this almost an excitement in me, welled up love like that's exactly what the intensity is of what what I like to feel. And intensity there. When people say you have a foot fetish, I said, No, it's more than that. It's beyond, yes, that's incorporated, but that's only one ingredient in this whole stew called sexuality, right? Yeah, many, many people they want, like, for example, some people want verbalization. Some do not want verbalization. Some want other, other dominating things like being spit on or being laughed at or so. So being a foot stool says to somebody, so it opens the door to a much larger array of sensual expression and intensity of feeling that delight on that island you talked about whenever I don't even have to be physically there I'm on that island when I'm feeling it. It's like a euphoric feeling of just total satisfaction, right?

Adam

Okay, so that's what you want other people to have, is that moment of discovering the thing that they like and having it crystallised for them in a word which can be really useful, because language is useful, right? And obviously, you know, your thing is asthenolagnia, but your point about education is obviously broader than just that. It's it applies to any kind of sexuality or desire or preference or anything, because it's about having the ability to like that's the world that we need, basically, is a world where people can have the ability to find the thing that best describes their experience and what they want,

Dug

right, exactly, right. And it doesn't limit it to just the one word, like foot fetish. If you say to someone in their brain, they instantly think, okay, so and so. Or the coach of the Jets has a foot fetish because he grabbed his wife's feet. Well, no, it's beyond that, and not everybody does. Or if you have a foot fetish, is he going to look at my feet? No, no, so. But when you limit it to that, see, it's just a label and a steno lab, yeah, is kind of like a description of a process of what you're feeling. And as far as I'm concerned, labels don't work. The only thing a label is good for are cans of soup and sweaters. That's it should be labelled.

Adam

No, I get you. Yeah. So why do you think that we are so impoverished, I suppose, with our understanding of these kinds of processes which are really about our bodies and our experiences, they're really core to who we are as people, but our language, our understanding, our processing, why are we so impoverished?

Dug

Good question, we were taught that. We were taught, oh, don't talk about down there or don't talk. You know, your crotch, don't talk. We were raised our whole puritanical upbringing was raised to not talk about sensuality or sexuality or appealing to you. So therefore, how could you if you couldn't talk about it? How could you explain it and figure out who you really were and what really was intense for you? So that's part one, and part two would be any, any sort of religious thing, where religion tends to want to dictate what you should do, where they can't and not legislate or dictate morality by religion or politics. They try to constant and you can't. It

Adam

doesn't work, can you? I'm interested in what you said about being raised with that kind of puritanical mindset. Um, plus it's, it's sister of religion. Can you share a bit about your background and and how that worked for you in the in the sort of the years that you were being raised and the

Dug

I can say that, sure. I can say that I had a a perfect Catholic upbringing. I had eight years of nuns, four years of priests, and 16 years of therapy, right?

Adam

Okay, that went my Catholic upbringing. Yeah, that's pretty textbook Catholic upbringing.

Dug

So, so yes, spiritual. I'm very spiritual, and very much. But it's, it's not organised religion, it is. It is just something you feel that gets you through the rough moments in life. So therefore, for me personally, it was that upbringing that they tried to channel me and say, No, you will marry. You will do this. You will do this. Well, no, not when you don't feel it. You can't it's. Not in my DNA. And I really do believe our sensuality is tied up in our whole DNA system, because we didn't choose to feel excited, yeah, when these type of things happen, the body just responded, yeah,

Adam

yeah. And what were the what was the place, and what were the years, the actual years, or the decade when you were being raised, because I'm wondering about how you think it compares to now.

Dug

So yeah, I was raised pretty much in the 60s, and it was a time. It was certainly a safe time, but it was a time when we still had didn't talk about things, but I was much more aggressive in the 60s, and I knew what I wanted, and I was precocious little runt in that at four years old, I remember, you know, neighbour guys chasing us kids around the yard, and one of them caught me, and I said, at four, whatever you do, don't put your feet in my face, which he proceeded to do, right, right? I manipulated this adult at four. So, yeah, what's already in me? I wouldn't have known to think that through and do that, and even even the interest in the Domination thing happened before puberty, it was like it was tingling. It was exciting, but I hadn't gone through puberty yet. It was like, Yeah, this is intriguing. I want more of this. I want more of this feeling weaker than feeling submissive to someone who is not gay. Let's say, Yeah, straight men would do it in a teasing way, and that's what I liked, was the teasing way. So that happened from that age all through my teen years, and I always manipulated the situation to get to be submissive to that person by manipulating their mind and saying, Well, if I lose, I'll do this, you know, so I purposely lose, right?

Adam

But, and one of the funny things about this, and what you're saying, Is that you, as you said, you were a precocious little runt in doing that, because you knew that that's what you wanted. But the broader point of what you're saying is there are plenty of people out there who don't know what they want, or they don't dare to enact that or manifest that in some way, and that having the education and the understanding of like how their body might be processing sexual ideas and stuff is the thing that will help them to sort of become that precocious little run if they don't have that like engine inside them already, right?

Dug

Well, see, they were but, but they were. They were frightened. The institutions I mentioned previously frightened them to even talk about it, think about it, or look inside themselves to see what is that I really like, and they put nobody to talk to about it, to see that, yeah, is okay. You know, if you're consenting with, with, with an adult, it's okay. You can be that. Now, I've had people contact me who were in their 90s who said, I just realised this is what I really, really, really like, and I for the first time. And then I've met others like me who experienced it before.

Dug

That's what tells me it's in the DNA, because I Yeah, to learn it, it was already there, responding.

Adam

But what? What would have helped you in the 60s, as you say, Let's go all the way back there, in terms of gaining more education about this and what was, what was just not possible back then, for you to like, for you to find out more, to

Dug

have someone to talk to about it, to realise it wasn't alone, to have somebody that I trusted, and to have it be not taboo, you know, whereas if you would have told the priest or the minister this, oh no, no, you're going to hell. It's bad, bad, bad, bad, you don't want to do so there was no one to talk to about it that would have helped. Yeah, I see again, education and talking communication let people know. I have discovered that when you let people know what it is you like they almost respect it because you have the courage. So with all people that I have been submissive to, I said, Here's what really is exciting. And they said, You know what? That's exciting for me on the other end, to be able to dominate someone that way, that way, yeah, but we took that communication and and being able to talk. So in the 60s, we didn't talk about things, yeah, we talked about Leave it to Beaver, you know,

Adam

right? That's all we had, yeah, yeah, just a couple of TV shows

Dug

have queer folk and all these other shows to talk about. So what could we say? You know, Leave it to Beaver, I stole that cookie. That's all we had.

Adam

So. So how do you evaluate the difference between then and now in terms of your mission for more education, about a standard lag near like, what, what, how? What's the report card for how things have. Changed in terms of education.

Dug

About this, I believe things have changed because, because people in each generation, you know, I'm a baby boomer, then you've got Gen X, then you've got millennial, each generation lower was much more open to wait a minute. Wait a minute. Tell me about that. That's about and therefore, now that we're in the other generations, the baby boomers may still not want to talk about it, but the younger ones will talk about anything. So Right? Each generation has helped us to become more open and discussing what we like now it doesn't we're there yet, because people don't understand it. You know, when you say to some some people, you know, I need to be totally humiliated and dominated by you, they say, why? What? You have to educate them as to you. Don't know why your body responds to it, but it does, yeah. And then turn to them and say, Well, why is it you like to be in control? Why is it our trip?

Adam

Why is it and why does it matter?

Dug

Exactly, it doesn't. It doesn't, because what we experience sensually is really our own business, and up to our it doesn't matter. Yeah, hurt anyone.

Adam

So it's, it's so true, like I've been doing quite a few events about, you know, my book soul mates, about foot fetishes, which is how we first connected, because I was interviewing you for that book, Doug and and it is one of the things that when I do events, people say, you know, people do ask me questions in the Q and A about when we're talking about the book, and they're they a lot of people do want to know, like, oh, Well, you know, what did you find out in researching the book about why we have a foot fetish? And I'm quite, sort of, I don't know, quite sarcastic almost with them, because I'm saying, like, well, you know what? Like, I started down that path, and then I realised that's not really a question that's that interesting to me. And

Dug

also the question, it doesn't matter, why do you have an it doesn't matter. Yeah, because that's like asking a person, why do you have blue eyes? Yeah, it doesn't matter. Why do you have hair? It doesn't matter. Yeah, set what you just described sensually. It doesn't matter why? What matters is that I've embraced it, I savour it, and I'm in a euphoric, orgasmic, yeah, joy of feeling it exactly.

Adam

And actually, to take your hair analogy, I think that's a good one, because, you know, if you have hair, and you know, you say, well, it doesn't I've got brown hair, and I do. It doesn't matter I've got brown hair, it doesn't tell me very much more about me. The question is, how do I enjoy that hair? Like, how do I choose to get it cut? How do I style it? How do I clean it? How do I use it to, like, express something of myself? And the answer, by the way, to all of those is, like, usually quite chaotically and messily, and that's just by how I, like, take care or don't with my hair. But, like, that's different things, but it does kind of express something about myself, just because it's quite messy, but,

Dug

you know, but it's a moot, it's a moot question to ask you, why is it brown? Exactly?

Adam

It's more interesting to be like, Okay, do you want it long or short or spiky? But why is blow dried?

Dug

I don't know why it's brown. No, you're born that way. That's it.

Adam

So one of the things that when I'm thinking about the difference between the 1960s and today, and how these successive generations of people have been more and more open, as you've described, one of the things that I think has contributed to that is things like networks and clubs and the internet and people finding each other and producing newsletters and magazines and all these things. And one of those things is the fraternity, which you founded and is still running today, and it's been going for, I don't know, decades now, you tell me—

Dug

it's been going for a half a century when I was sorry, you know, when there was no other groups out there, and I said, we need to find a way to help people meet others who share this common interest. Yeah, so it's been 50 years that I've been been really operating and running the foot fraternity, and what surprised me was that it grew bigger than I ever thought it would, and there were more people into it than I ever thought. And it also, it also transcends male and female, because whatever was describing just changed the pronoun to he or she, and people feel it so, right? So the feeling of the foot fraternity was universal. When I started it, it grew and grew. And what I did was I started to give images and films of scenes that were created and people loved it and they couldn't get enough of it. That's possibly. Why the success is what it is today. And also I started it when there was nothing else out there. We didn't get internet. Oh yes. Way before the internet, we had to sell VHS, tapes and yeah, photographs that were off of negatives, and that's all we had them. But we we made it work. Yeah, I did was I grew with it, with the times and as the years went on, I said, Okay, now we need to do stuff on the web. We need to digitise it. So that's what helped it grow. And also exposing people to it helped it grow. Because those that were feeling it but were too afraid to say it, it helped them except accept it in themselves, and those that didn't understand it said, Oh, that's pretty cool. For example, I was a manager of a softball team, and the guys, you know, were straight, guys really hot, and they knew work I did. I you know, we didn't keep it a secret, they were all straight. But I said, No, no, I love this and I love that. And they said, and it turned into where, by my being courageous and explaining it. They said, We really respect you because you're so honest with who you are. Yeah, we could do that. And then it went to the point of where they said, You know what these cleats have had, and I gotta get new ones. Do you want my old cleats? Yes, yes, please. Thank you. I'll get you the new pair. And then, being where they we just had no problem with it. Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. This happened.

Adam

I'm curious to know, if you can remember over the decades that you were doing it, how much were you thinking? On the one hand, I'm just basically helping people to get the pleasure that I also have by sharing the stories and the newsletters and the images and the video tapes that I'm essentially like, giving people kind of content about sex that is going to give them pleasure. That's one thing. And then the other thing is, how much of Were you aware of that it had this educational function that you're talking about, of helping people, because there's, there's there's sort of like, let's call it like the entertaining function and the educational function. And were you aware that you were doing both of those things at the same time? And were you as conscious about the education function as you were about the entertaining function?

Dug

I was conscious of both, and I enjoyed both. Okay? And I thought simply, why not have them both, have the educational part that's there, and I would talk to anybody, whatever, and help them through it. But on the other hand, I would enjoy the scenes and experiences, uh, essentially, to to a euphoric high. So why not have both? And so all along, it was, it was a thing of both, and I think that's the reason why the foot fraternity.com site, it has been the most successful site in history, and the first one ever to be out there. I think that's why it was successful, because I really was an M genuine of I want you all to be okay with what you like, yeah, and and it is and it is okay to feel your sexual expression. Yeah, yeah, it's all right. And most people just need to hear that. And generally they hear it once or twice. Their whole ego is is built, and they say, I'm okay with who I am and how I was born. Now I savour it and enjoy it.

Adam

Yeah, now it sounds a little bit as well. Some of the ways that you talk sounds a little bit like therapy. And you mentioned earlier that you did 16 years of therapy, so I'm also interested in hearing you talk about the relationship between the therapy that and what it meant for you, and the the ways that this broader thing that we're talking about of people becoming okay with themselves, because that's obviously a thing that therapy can help with. So like, I guess, yeah, can you can you talk a bit about the therapy that you had and how that helped you in in this journey?

Dug

Yes, the therapy simply reinforced that I was on the right track. I was doing what was natural for me to do. And I had very, very good therapists who embraced it. I had three different ones, and they were all wonderful about this is fantastic. You need to do more. Have you thought of this? The world needs this. So the therapy simply embraced me as far as loving myself to the point where people started finding me because of my therapy of being okay with who I am, that's when National Geographic called me from Australia and said we'd like to fly up to Cleveland to integrate you four days, you know, and other interviews came about because I was so okay with who I am, yes, I still, always have been. I still am where it doesn't matter what others think. I've once bought a book just for its cover, and I ripped the cover off the book and framed it, and the title of the book was, what you think about me, is none of my business. Yeah.

Adam

And I thought. Yeah, that's it. That's it, right?

Dug

What anybody thinks is, that's not my business. I don't care. I don't need it.

Adam

So if we're thinking about building the world where people can have the sex that they want and wouldn't, and it's got all of these different elements to it that we've been talking about, I'm wondering about how we make it concrete. You know, like if you were president for a year, or something like that, or the mayor of the city, like, what actual concrete things would you do? For example, it might be like, well, you give free therapy to everyone so they can have that space and time and expertise to explore it. But like, what are the concrete things that you would do to make this happen?

Dug

The most concrete thing I could think of is helping everyone explore their sexuality and not be afraid of it. And I would make it in No, I would not make things illegal like No, gay marriage, no, this, know that, yeah, and be done with all of that. No, no, no. We accept people as people. Every other animal in the animal kingdom doesn't, doesn't have, doesn't judge, doesn't, does, doesn't say you're wrong, you're wrong, right? Humans are the only ones that do right, yeah? Well, who's the smarter one? Yeah,

Adam

exactly, yeah, exactly. Can you think of other like policy things that you would do, concrete things?

Dug

I hadn't thought of what concretely I do, but it would centre around people. Let's love each other and accept each other as as this is so important, because everything we touch in life is as is. The cup you pick up to drink from one day is going to crack or break. Yeah? You can keep using it as is or get rid of it. Well, yeah, like that. We're all as is. You are, I am, this is, this is, this is how we are. Now, some people won't care for our ways or our or our aggressiveness, others will be impressed by it and say, I'd like to be more like you. So I would want the politically, I would want to to anything that discriminates against others except consenting adults. I mean, you must be a adult. You know nothing that that. So that's my only restriction, because an adult and you're, you're you're free do what you want wear, what you want wear, wear the clothes you want. And, you know, obviously your sexual life generally keep it private to yourself, because really it is nobody's business, right?

Adam

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting talking to you about it, because, like, I'm thinking how things have changed so much since the 60s. Like you said, Yes, and the it's been different for the different generations. And if just thinking about something like asthenolagnia, because it's a great example of something that people still have more it's an example of something that people still have more shame about than perhaps other kind of sexual desires, and how So things have changed, but it also seems like we're still such a long way away from having that world that you just talked about, where people don't judge each other and don't feel shame in themselves, including about asthenolagnia and similar kinds of desires.

Dug

So that's, but that's the paradox of asthenolagnia, is you mentioned shame, but, yeah, yeah, you want like to I have to kiss his feet and look between his toes and oh, that's, oh, I'm so ashamed. And I have, right? Oh, I'm so ashamed. I got it that hot, you know? So it's like, in that particular case, the shame is okay. But on the broader sense, each person has to say I'm okay with being, being what I am, and letting another person know this is what I really like, please. Yeah, would you use your your desire to dominate, to dominate me. So yeah, to you,

Adam

but that makes me think, have you ever thought about, whilst trying to de shame the sex world you know, like, remove the that Catholic thing from it, that then the shame that you want to experience in sex loses its potency,

Dug

not at all, okay, okay, what you've done is you've embraced what is naturally in your DNA. You've embraced it and said, I love me for what I love. Yeah, it's what I love. So bring it on, right? Okay, dominate, humiliate me, and I will To be blunt, have an orgasm for days. Yeah, yeah. It'll be so exciting, yeah. And I think have being able to even have an orgasm is a gift, you know, yes. How lucky we are to have that gift that we can enjoy that yeah, times after I'm just say a little prayer of thanks, yes. But you have. Body, and having a body that we can enjoy,

Adam

right, exactly, and that's something that we just need to keep basically talking about and spreading, I suppose, is through education, through things like the foot fraternity and, yeah, whatever it is, websites, newsletters, clubs, parties, podcasts, even

Dug

really that what you're doing is ideal. People listening say, Oh God, I see what he's saying and asking, I've thought those same things. You must, you must not stop what you're doing, because you're opening the door for so many people whose lives you don't even know are out there, right into every word you're saying. Well, that's giving them hope. I'm sorry, but that, to me, is being a good human being. That's

Adam

right, people. Oh, I mean, that's really lovely to hear. And I agree. And I just think it's, I want to say that, like, it's obviously something that you've done as well. You've done it for 50 years. Doug is through the club. So like, I guess as a final kind of wrapping up point in terms of thinking about the service that you've given to us then Agni and you know folks everywhere as well, specifically, how do you how do you look back on those 50 years and what you've done with

Dug

absolute, extreme gratitude? I am so glad that my path was where it was meant to be, and I was courageous enough and found the courage to speak and say and do the things I did. So absolutely I'm grateful for the years there. You know, there's not a thing I regret. I'm glad I did it. I'm glad I did it, not for me. I did it for people. I've left legacy. Most people around the world know the name Dug Gaines. They heard it. And I didn't mean for it to be that way. It was just yeah, it happened to be okay. Why don't you all be okay? But I didn't think it would grow this. And when something grows that big, you have to give it some sense of power, or not power, power, but some sense of validity. That means so many people out there are feeling it, yeah,

Adam

that means it's real, it's meaningful, it's significant, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Dug

So I don't regret it thing I'm and there are many things I'm delighted to remember, yes,

Adam

all those scenes that you were in no doubt. Yes, everyone

Dug

and I watch my own video tapes all the time, and say, God, that was hot. Oh, freeze the frame and say, Now, now. Now I want him to say this in my mind. Okay, now I want to say, Oh, look at the shape. Oh god, look at that power. Look at the way he's pointing. Oh God. So I re watch everything I created and find joy in it. I guess that's like going to an art museum. You know, I'm finding joy in what I've created, and the happiness is that others have found that similar joy in watching it, and have said to me, these films are amazing, or these photos are amazing, or your models are incredible, you know, Yeah. How'd you get them? And then they ask all kind of questions. That's the most common question I get is, How do you get the guys to model and do this? Because the models on the foot fraternity, the top, the superior ones, are all straight, yeah? Like power. So for them, it's not a spiritual issue, it's a power. Straight men love power, and when you put that position of being submissive to them, they feel it. Their ego goes through the roof, and they love

Adam

it, right? Yeah? Well, Doug, thank you so much. I'm, I'm, let's leave it there, but I think that you've given me such so many things to think about, and basically lots of energy boost for this podcast and other work and everything like that. So thank you. I'm

Dug

thrilled. Thank you so much for calling me. If there's anything I can do for you in the future, call me or go to the foot fraternity.com. My address is there and you can, anybody can contact me there, and members there, they can call me. It doesn't matter. Amazing, okay, my friend, thank you.

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode!

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX - the idea or this podcast!

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x

Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith.

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex?

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome.

Let’s go!

—

What if we all quit watching influencers and met to discuss sex instead?

My guest in this episode is Ruby Rare, who has a bone to pick with the internet. She’s built a huge online audience for her work as a sex educator, author, broadcaster, and public speaker. Ruby’s voice on sex and relationships is essential for our times, and it’s great that people can hear and see her ideas about sex online. But recently she’s been wondering: what if we turned away from our phones?

Ruby and I had a meandering but fun conversation about the way the form of social media can pervert good messages about polyamory. Her answer for how to build a world of free sex is to put down our phones, get out of the house, and meet in town for a chat instead. I think you’ll really enjoy listening to Ruby make her case!

Ruby’s book The Non-Monogamy Playbook is out now, and it’s fab.

Adam

Ruby Rare, welcome to Free Sex.

Ruby

Hi. Thanks for having me.

Adam

It's really great to have you, and I'm really looking forward to having this conversation with you. You've just come out with a new book relatively recently, which is called, remind me

Ruby

It's called The Non-onogamy Playbook. So amazing, basically trying to create a book that's inviting and fun thinking about non monogamy and gives you some how tos, but isn't really prescriptive, and allows us all to be a bit messy and chaotic with this.

Adam

So I wonder if that's the energy that you're going to bring to free sex. Let me ask you my question, how do we build a world of free sex?

Ruby

Oh, it's a great question. It's a great podcast. My proposition for how we build a world of free sex, is once a month, I want all of the polyamorous and non monogamous people to turn off their phones and go to a lovely, calm, gentle Village Square, and we all get to chat about this without algorithms and social media performance ing and like, only communicating about this three screens.

Adam

Okay, right? So, first of all, it sounds like your world of free sex presupposes the idea that it that it will be a world with where people are free to be polyamorous and non monogamous, and none of those things are like, shamed or weird in any way. So I love the fact that that's and

Ruby

I'm also not. I'm not trying to, like, recruit there. My aim is not for like, more polyamorous people, but, yeah, the world of free sex, that is monogamy is never assumed. No relationship style is assumed.

Adam

Great, okay? And then within that world, you've got a place where you can go every month to talk to other people face to face, and maybe also we can have zoom people phoning in if they can't leave their house or whatever to talk about.

Ruby

We'll do teleporting. We're gonna do teleporting.

Adam

Okay, fine, yeah, of course. Because, yeah, we're getting off our devices. That's the point, right? Okay, off our devices.

Ruby

No screens. There's like, gentle sunshine. Someone's playing nice little music. We're kind of like transporting to a nice mediaeval town square, but no one's getting burnt, no one's getting, like, done for sodomy. We're just like having some nice chats that don't involve the internet. Okay,

Adam

right? So Ruby Rare, as someone who lives their life on the Internet, what have you got against the internet?

Ruby

Right. I will preface this with the fact that you know this a little bit already, but I am having a current time where I'm having a lot of strong feelings about the internet, and I feel, Oh, I don't know how this conversation will go. Because I because, in some ways, I know that that, like social media and the internet more broadly, is really useful and exciting in terms of information sharing and sharing stories and peer support. But also I feel very I feel quite fed up with the way that social media creates this kind of default way of performing now, and that comes across in any kind of niche area, but for me, you know, I've been thinking and writing about non monogamy a lot for the last few years, and I don't love the way that we're talking about this online.

Adam

Well, that's okay, so I tell you what, let's do shit sandwich, right? Let's because, because you just also hit because I think we're going to get into the problems and then your solutions with the mediaeval town square thing. But maybe we should talk a little bit first about the great things that the Internet brings us in terms of non monogamy and polyamory, because there has from my you know, if I play devil's advocate with you, I'm looking at the Internet, and I'm like, so many more people know about non monogamy now and polyamory, there are so many terms the language has evolved and expanded. Lots more people are learning about it, knowing about it, practising it, trying it in a D shaming way, thanks to the internet and influencers and content creators, including amazing people like you, who are part of that drive, right so I'd love to have maybe you know, if you. Do this shit sandwich, like, what's the nice things first? Like the good things that it's that it's brought before we get into reforming it? Yeah,

Ruby

for sure, I find it hard to talk to think about this just around, like polyamory compared to sex and relationships and sexual health and bodily autonomy. Oh, yeah. A more optimistic, sex positive, left wing view that is very prevalent in our pockets of the internet. Yeah, and obviously that's really nice, like I, you know, I think for a long time I was more seen as, like a sex ed person in particular, and actually it's really difficult, maybe impossible, to separate sex from relationships and relating to others. So currently I'm thinking about stuff more from, like a relationship perspective. But yeah, like five years ago, that wave of like, body positivity and sex positivity, even though now I can poke holes in it and see it very much as like a product of its time, that was really exciting. And there is like, without question, loads of people who have just been kind of like opened up to different ways of thinking and different ways of being and being more empathetic towards difference or things that sit outside of their own personal norms via online spaces. So like, big thumbs up for that. I do. I do think that's positive. I don't know. I think, I think, because we're talking mid 2025, globally and politically, it feels like clutching at straws with anything positive right now, and that includes internet spaces. And I guess I spent a long time trying to be trying to really amplify the positives of social media spaces for myself, to justify things to myself, and also to provide some hope for other people who might be listening to me. And it's harder and harder to do that. I think there is absolutely good there, but if we scale back the good that that is doing is even though it's really significant, and even though we feel it, and hopefully people listening now, like will really have felt the benefit of it, it is minuscule compared to all of the other like, really dodgy pockets of the Internet going on at the same time and the and, and if we also just like, take the content of content off the table and look at the mechanics of massive social media platforms, just more and more there's There's not a case for them providing much good,

Adam

yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's, there's a couple of things that you touched on there. That last thing is about the the platform itself, the engineering of the platform and the algorithm and stuff like that, which, yeah, let's, let's get into that and but prior to that, you talked about basically the way that politics has shifted in recent years and the way that there's been more, I mean, there's been like the broadly speaking, the right has gained more and more power, both in like social terms and like in democratic parliamentary terms, you know, and takes

Ruby

up more space, even if the like, I think the amount of space and air time they occupy is disproportionate to the amount of power that they have, even though the power is great as well.

Adam

Interesting, because you could say, and I don't know this, maybe your research has done this, but you could, could you say that maybe it was the opposite that was happening five years ago in that period where you talked, where there was more and more sex positivity content and content from like what, as you said, our pocket of the internet, and that that was getting more air time and more traction and everything like that and that that has kind of flipped, and maybe because the right has had, like has basically just done a backlash against that, and sort of like started to, like, occupy more and more space, potentially,

Ruby

yeah, I feel like there's that's got legs, I don't know, but I want someone to do that research, yeah. And also I'm like, I I can say all of this stuff, and then I still sort of feel like an asshole for not being like we I, there's, there's definitely a frustrated I feel like an asshole side of this. But I also do think it's important that we still occupy these spaces, maybe because otherwise, like. What's the antidote? What's the counter to the rise in returning to conservative values and kind of wrapping fascism up, like I got so tongue tied, wrapping fascism up in like gendered politics and domestic politics and kind of sex and relationships, it's all, it just all feels like a pretty hellish soup right now that we're swimming in. And I guess because I am slightly more chronically online than the average person, and because my job currently is very tied to these spaces, I think about it a lot more, and I'm also, like, much more punishing about it to myself. And also I don't, like, I know that we're going to try and find some solutions here, but, like, I don't have, on a personal level, I don't have a solution for this right now because, yeah, my like, one day I would really like to shift to a place where I don't have to use any of these platforms as part of my job, yeah, and part of my like social life, but I also don't, can't see the path yet. Yeah, I'm annoyed about it.

Adam

Well, I think that you the reason that the fact that you're very deep in all of these spaces and platforms and experiencing these things like at the coalface and at the same time in parallel, are very critically engaging with them and thinking about them in parallel is amazing, and it just makes you a great guest for free sex and to have this kind of conversation. Because, you know, it's, you know, one thing that free sex might get accused of is that it's, like, quite a bit thinky. And I'm like, Well, I love hearing people's sex stories, but this is not a sex stories podcast. This is like, let's do some thinking about sex, which is arguably my sexuality. But that's another episode. Okay. So

Ruby

also, we can do another episode, and I'll just come in and talk about, like, really frivolous, wild, outrageous, debauch, sexual times, like, sexual experiences, yes, recently, yes. This is not that one, sadly, serious,

Adam

exactly. We're bringing down meta in this one. Okay, yeah, so, yeah, I think that's interesting about the kind of, like, the political shift that's happened, and how that has, like changed the conversation. And it reminds me of an earlier episode of free sex with Zachary Zane, who was talking about as a writer. I mean, he's also like a con online content creator, right? But he's, he was talking like as as a content creator and a writer, including a writer of content, that he's kind of fed up with a way that a lot of people in the sex positive space like use language In quite a self righteous way and in quite a way that's patronising, as if, like, well, you should know this, shouldn't you? Or if you don't know this, then I'm going to tell you, and then you'll know it, and you'll be a better person because of that. Yeah. And that's like, in content about and about sex, and about sex and relationships and stuff. And he's like, I agree. Like, I agree with these guys, but their tone is getting us into trouble, because it's so easy to dismiss people with that tone. And I think that there's that that episode with Zach is like a brother episode of this episode, right? Because these two things are these things are connected. Yeah,

Ruby

I think generally I just, I feel quite allergic to self righteousness and performing a particular version and like, Well, how am I? I think I feel allergic to self righteousness and anything skirting around like guru Oracle behaviour, and you see that in loads of spaces. But we're talking about polyamory right now, and I do think it's polyamory more than non monogamy more broadly. When I my book, I use the word non monogamy, and it is a mouthful and a half to say, but I use it because it's the broadest term, because I because I'm talking about loads of different ways of doing kind of non normative relationships, and right now I'm the most interested in thinking and talking about relationship anarchy and how that kind of opposes quite a lot of stuff within polyamory and some other particularly like couple centric forms of practising non monogamy, we can pick up if you want to, but also that's just there. But I think like polyamory influences and swing it influences, I guess as two distinct camps. There are loads of different ways of doing this, but there is kind. Never smugness there for quite a lot of people, that I feel a bit allergic to, and some of this is absolutely narcissism of small differences, because I am also someone who is online and is talking about some of this stuff. I currently don't talk about it on like a personal level, I'm not sharing direct stories. Yeah, maybe some, at some point that will change. And I also feel, you know, maybe there's some envy there, because generally, the more people are willing to share, the more engagement people get, which is a really dodgy incentive. Because, yeah, yeah, for so many reasons, I think that you're kind of going into conversations about informed consent of sharing information about other people. Yeah, you're, you know, it makes me think about like all of those quite insidious like YouTube accounts that are families who are sort of using their kids as fodder for engagement, like, are we subconsciously seeking drama or thrills so that we're able to share that information as currency on social media spaces? I think it's quite hard, and I'm saying this with love, but I feel like it might come off as a bit judgy. It can be quite difficult to share, to really share, like lived experience of polyamory online and showing multiple partners without it falling into a category where it feels quite forced or a bit cringe from people who are completely outside this or also people from within the community, yeah, and that is a very I don't I mean that, and I also don't mean that, but I'm just putting it out there, yeah, just to see what you think about it.

Adam

Um, yeah, yeah, because it well, I guess my, my response to that is just wondering whether I'm thinking about your, your kind of solution at the top, which was, you want a day a month where people meet in person through the media, you know, thanks to teleportation and a paid day off work and whatever it is to like, talk in person about polyamory and non monogamy. And I'm wondering, like, what is the quality of conversation that's possible under those circumstances compared to you making a reel on Instagram? Now, about the same thing. And maybe, if I have a guess there, it's something about the the fact that you're like, you know, you're through a lens, and you're literally framed. And so that therefore forces you to make all sorts of decisions about composition and lighting. And then that gets you into the realm of like, performing. And then there's a matter of the content itself, and like, what you're sharing and what you're saying that, how you talk about that, because you're talking not directly to another person, but you're kind of broadcasting into your phone and therefore out to like a million people. So I'm just That's my response. Is that Is there something about that difference between that imagined Town Square and the quality of conversation you have there versus the quality of conversation you're able to have at the

Ruby

minute on a reel. Yeah, I really like that. I mean, like the town square conversations, to me, I imagine them as being much more meandering and messy and mundane. Yeah? Like, yeah. A lot of this, a lot of this shit is kind of boring sometimes and and ugly and doesn't have a resolution, and there's Yeah, no, can be messy, and people can mess up, and it doesn't have to be communicated in a way that's click baity, or, yeah, yeah, yeah, going to cause debate or, like, anything divisive? Yeah, I I'd like it to be a bit more Bumbly, because also, just from experience talking to lots of other people from me when I first started doing this kind of stuff 10 years ago, it's there's the stakes are really high when you're starting this out, it can be really scary if you're shifting from something more traditionally monogamous to anything different, and I don't know how compatible our current social media platforms are with genuine reassurance.

Adam

Yeah, that's so interesting, because I think a lot of people, first of all, there'll be people who say, and I think you would agree with this, I have absolutely been assured, been felt, felt held, felt reassured by a specific content creator whose work I love and whose message I like, I feel connected to, and who affirms me like. Like, and I'm sure we all know I definitely

Ruby

feel that as well, right? So I think, I think when it comes from social media spaces, for me, it feels, even when I feel like that, it can be quite short lived, right?

Adam

So there's something so this is kind of, this reminds me of, like, the debate in like, publishing world about whether the quality of reading between a physical book and a book on an e reader like a Kindle is different, and there is some research that's been done on this, independent research that says that you retain less when you read on a Kindle than when you read the same book in a physical form.

Ruby

I don't know how. Also, sorry, just side note, if that's true, this is some fucked up stuff about me that I read for pleasure on a Kindle, and I only consume, like paper books when it's something about work. No,

Adam

that is interesting. Okay, let's put a pin in that one. Come back to that Yeah. So there's something about speaking, like, having that connection online, which is essentially more ephemeral, because it's, you know, and it's yeah, it's not the same as the conversation that you have in person, like, even a one to one, like, also, just so that people know you and I are in this conversation online, like we're being mediated by our screens, because we're in two different towns at the minute, and we're doing

Ruby

this, like, to create a product, and we're making content, right? You know, we're, I think it's, I think it's you. It's really hard to switch off from this idea of making content, yeah, and I, I think we're very, I feel very locked into that, but also quite trapped by it.

Adam

Yeah, yeah, so, but nevertheless, we are having a one to one personal like, like a conversation between two people. It's not like you're broadcasting onto the internet and I'm watching you do that and maybe commenting, right, it's and I'm one of a million people doing that, yeah. So, like, so the fact that you and I can have a conversation, which is back and forth, like, this is, I mean, I feel like I'm like, I'm thrilled. I'm having, like, a one to one time with with Ruby, instead of, like, you know, like, watching you on a reel, so like and that. And that's because, and I'm thrilled at that, because I know that this is going to be better quality content. Not to say that your reels are like, in your like, Internet content is bad in any way, because it's amazing. But you see what I mean, like, I just know instinctively that this is going to be a great conversation. And I

Ruby

think that we, and we get to, like, go around in circles. That's your meandering question ourselves more and like, what, however long this episode is going to be, like, 40 minutes versus, yeah, a minute and a half. Like, that's, that's the main thing I and like, I will easily spend 40 minutes on tick tock Yeah, watching what, like 30 minute and a half videos like yeah, videos yeah, and my brain being, like, scattered all around and probably like, receiving things that I find really helpful or funny or insightful as well as rubbish. But this feels the presence that I have having this conversation means I I just feel like I'm getting more out of it, and I know that can be really fucking judgmental and like weird. I'm like, my brain is so scrambled in all of this right now, which is why it's quite nice to articulate, yeah, but I just want more meandering conversations. I want us all to be afforded the luxury. Well, it shouldn't be a luxury like the time to meander and ruminate with all of this, because there's, there's not much space for ruminating on Yeah, social media. No,

Adam

that's exactly right. And that's why we would really all benefit from having your town square. Idea of one day a month, we all go to the town square and, like, I mean, it's quite Roman, isn't it? Didn't they have, like, forums where you would just go and speak in public. Also, like, it makes me think this is one of the reasons why I love certain cities in definitely Southern Europe, like I spent quite a bit in Madrid and Barcelona, and it's like people are on the street, you know, people are on benches, and they're, they're just like, hanging out and talking. And obviously people are on, sit on benches in London, but there is something more of a culture, like a more street culture in other in certain places, in some places, and not others. And I love that, because you're just bumping into people. And this is so interesting that this was the vision. And this is one other thing I was going to ask you, because. Because I'm 40, I guess I Yeah, I'm a millennial. I think I'm like a mid millennial. I think that's right, yeah. And so I think as a mid millennial, I remember when places like Facebook and Twitter started a big part of the public conversation about them, which probably came from the marketing of those companies, was that they were a town square where we would all meet in the comments section, and we would all tweet at each other, and it would be this big, loud, messy, but broadly positive, constructive conversation. You know, the social media platforms, those early ones that went big, like Twitter and Facebook, were about a conversation, and they were called public squares and town squares. And I used to even do a job as a social media editor years ago for a newspaper, which was like, trying to, like, you know, stimulate the conversations on social media because we believed in it being a public square, with our journalism chucked into it to inform that conversation. So like, I'm of that generation which was like, the internet is a public square, and it's going to be great, because we can all have high quality conversations with not just three people, but 3000 people. And surely that's better. And we'll finally, you know, that'll help us get to the truth of it. And now I'm like, I want my money back. So

Ruby

I want three people. I wanted to just have one people together. I only want

Adam

to know three people. That's all I want to know. Ruby's one. I wonder how. I wonder if

Ruby

this would change if we banned, if you couldn't monetize being on social media, and if it did not, if somehow we created a way where it did not matter how many people watched something or commented on something

Adam

most people would like give up,

Ruby

exist. I know this doesn't exist, but like what that just trying to think as me, as a consumer in these spaces, but also me trying to acknowledging that, like having grown on these spaces has given me, like a career for now, and that it is in my professional best interest to keep making things that get people's attention and spark conversations like what I would want to Make might be different in time. Yeah, yeah, if the that pressure was off and like, and it would and like, I don't know, I think it kind of goes back to this, like, quest for authenticity, whatever that is now. But it doesn't like, I know that you, when you and I have spoken about this in the past, an observation of yours around polyamory influences, and that's like in the States as well as here, because a lot of this does feel but it's still very like us focused, but there is often this real, inauthenticity to the way that they're talking about stuff on socials. Well, it just feels like to me. But you know what I mean? Yeah,

Adam

I do. And it just, it just feels to me when I look at that, I think the reason, the reason why I'm sort of on their case a little bit is because I have the same views as them for the most part. And my I am polyamorous, solo, poly, non monogamous person. That's who I am, that's my politics, and that's my practice. And yet, I look at their content for the most part of that kind of thing, and I'm like, it just doesn't connect with me. It doesn't it doesn't match with how I think and feel about these kinds of stuff, even though, on the paper, the actual words would be the same, the same that I would use. So I feel like, so, so that kind of, like jolts me out of a connection to the extent that I then I'm on the outside of it, and I look at it and I'm like, Why do I feel this? Why do I feel weird about this and these kinds of people? And why do I not? Why do I don't? You said earlier that you might spend an hour looking at tick tock or an hour and a half looking at tick tock videos, like one after the other, and I don't tend to lose time that way. I'm not saying that in a smug way that that makes me a better person. I definitely like waste time doing other things online. Oh, sorry. I mean, I say it's wasting time. You didn't say that, but like, now I'm

Ruby

just thinking about you watching an hour and a half worth of porn. Oh, did you know that's what I was you're going to feature length maybe.

Adam

Wow, that transparent, and I'm not shamed of that. Yeah, but except that, like, it is a bit of a, I mean, it's another episode. Let's talk about it. Find me a guest to talk about that. But, yeah, yes. So yeah, anyway, the point was that, like, I just don't connect with that kind of content, even though it's like, should be for me in a way, so that kind of just jolts me out of it, and I'm like, Okay, now engage my brain. Why do I not connect with that? What is it about the tone, the style, the medium, and part of it is the medium. Like, I don't watch Tiktok. I don't watch Tiktok full stop. It just doesn't work for me. And Instagram, I look at it for five minutes and then put it away. I'm not saying this makes me a better person. It's more just like, I also don't like watching skiing, like, it's just not for me. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, so, yeah. So I think that there's something about the style and the tone of that, but at the same time, I'm holding space for what you said earlier, which is like, well, it does work for a lot of people, and I get that, and it's fine, and more messages about polyamory in the world is no bad thing. And I

Ruby

also just don't like I get what I wish maybe I was more like you, and it just not being for me. I definitely am very drawn into it. But one thing that I I don't really know how to follow trends on social media, like, as a content creator, yeah, and a few years ago, I won an award, and the person like the quote that they used from the judging panel, of like, why I won, it was sort of nagging me of being like, Ruby's great, in spite of never doing any trends. It was kind of just like march into the beat of their own drum that I right. I would love to be it to learn how to do that, and my brain just doesn't work that way. And I guess sometimes I'll see polyamory influencers who are using, like, really mainstream trends, but making them about their niche and doing it really well. If like description for well is like, lots of eyeballs, lots of attention,

Adam

that's it. Those people are making that they know how to do it. Yeah,

Ruby

I wish I could do that. If I could sell out and, like, buy a weird, creepy house that was me and my friend's retirement fund. Like, I would love to do that. But, yeah, I just, I don't have it in me right now. I'm too I'm just kind of low level burnout all the time. I don't know what trend I will literally fall apart. But, yeah, I like there's and I don't, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm not putting like judgement on that, but it's a strange place. If that is your primary source of learning about this and seeing and like visibility for of it,

Adam

yeah. Do you think you if you had if all things being equal, and if you take out practical considerations and money and stuff like that? Do you think that you would write more books if you could shift your time and your focus and your style, like, the type of content that you make, if you could shift that, would it be writing more books?

Ruby

Yeah, it would be. It would be longer form things,

Adam

okay, overall, okay. So it could be document, like, TV documentaries, or, yeah, films or

Ruby

and like, and I love like. I love watching long form YouTube essays. I don't again, I don't think, I don't know if I'm a maker of them, but I admire being able to kind of start with a bigger picture and context building, and then talking about a particular issue and nerding out on it and then leaving with more questions than I had answered, like leaving more questions than I had to begin with. And it's really hard to do that in a environment that is only really interested in short form content. And that is changing.

Adam

Yeah, it's Yeah, because YouTube essays are a thing. I don't know how people make a living doing it, or any income doing it, unless you're unless you obviously have 10 million followers on YouTube. And where the app, where the where there's an obvious reason why ads would get placed in those particular videos, which is less likely if you're talking about, maybe the things that we talk about, compared to if you're, yeah, compared to if you're talking about, like the new toys that are just being released or something, which obviously I'm gonna get loads of toy ads in. Actually, that reminds me last episode with Matt Scully took where we talked quite a lot about the word, I think we use the word play parties quite a lot. My friend texted me to say that, like, the ads that had been placed in that podcast episode were like Kinder eggs and kinder treats and stuff, which must be because of, like, play or something. I mean, don't know, it's great

Ruby

different kind of play, although I guess there's a kind of festive there's an Easter kind of play. That you can do many ways, free. Meg,

Adam

everyone's Easter Bunny furry at this time of year. Yeah. So

Ruby

okay, I really want to overshare something, but I won't right now. We can do that later, I

Adam

think. So I just kind of want to maybe start rounding up by saying we have thrown all the shit at social media and the platforms, and that's fine, and that's our right to do that. But if there's a person who says, Well, you know what, Ruby and Adam, you don't have to play that game. You can have your town square. You can meet up once a month and talk about polyamory and non monogamy in a meandering, messy, mundane way with each other and with lots of other people. Like, what's stopping people from doing that? If that's going to help us get to a world of free sex

Ruby

there? I mean, there's not much stopping it, to be honest. And in some ways, it's already happening. If you are living in a major city, and there are community organisers who are putting on this kind of stuff, or you are incentivized to do that yourself. My friends run in South London a night called em fam, which is a really beautiful event, and I love going there. It's like organised by lots of people who are kind of sit within lots of different communities, within the non monogamy, polyamorous world of London. And it's lots of different people, and you can have great conversations. I think it's maybe in my fit, kind of idealised Town Square, that's not a like place where you're trying to pick people up or hook up, yeah? Because that skews that like changes this a little bit. Yeah, I love, love places where you can hook up, please, more of them, but like, yeah, that I'm, I'm maybe trying to find something slightly more earnest in this town square thing, but not in a social media way that I feel for like, a more genuine I don't know, it's been a long day. I We can do it. And if the idea of, like, how, how does this create a better world and more access to Freer sex and intimacy. I think it's, I think it's greater accessibility to this and more prevalence, like baking this in to Yeah, I'd love this to be a sweeping statement for everyone, but I, but just talking about myself for a minute, my sex and relationships would be better if I was less online. Yeah, and so if for any of the other slightly chronically online people listening, I think it's having the discipline for us to go, Okay, gonna put that down now and gonna not go there. Gonna not Yeah, perceive polyamory primarily through the lens of, like, short form influencer content, yeah, gonna step outside, yeah. I'm literally talking about touching grass. Like, you know, yeah,

Adam

I think Yeah. And I think that's a really great sort of crystallised summary of what your share, the vision that you're sharing in this episode, which is less time online. Sorry to those people who are like literally listening to a podcast. Although the great thing about when you're listening to a podcast is you can also be like, walking around in the world and touching the grass and, yeah, feeling the sun on your face, that's the great thing about and

Ruby

it's not no on, no time online, yeah, it's being able to reframe it. And, you know, there's way bigger, like wider, political parts of that, but just going, yeah, how are we learning about this, and where are we picking up our social expectations, yeah. And can we also, do we also end up picking up shame and guilt and performance anxiety when we're just spending time online? Yeah? And I think even

Adam

perhaps Yeah, I think yes too. I think that's a good shout. And so I would just add that the day where, or the town square thing, where you can go and spend that time doing that, like, Yes, more accessible, so more ENM, fam type meet ups, like a national network sponsored by government, or the NHS or something would be great for that. So, yes, more more, you know, more places like that. We don't have to be in London or Manchester or somewhere. And then, and also, people setting them. People set them up. People are amazing. They set things up all the time. So doing that. And then also, I. Uh, like, people are working, people are busy. People are they've got jobs that are five days a week. They've got two jobs. They've got a job and a kid. They've got, you know, so, like, yeah, maybe this is a day a month where all the businesses are closed and we're all paid, just a paid a freelancer day rate to go and engage with our conversation that's about sex and relationships, just so that we, I mean, ease that pressure.

Ruby

This is, I mean, every time I listen to your podcast, it unlike the way that it just circles back to universal basic income, like, that's the main that's like, the, that's the, that's the answer to this podcast. This

Adam

is a stealth UBI podcast, absolutely, yeah. But

Ruby

within that, like, what if there was allocated, like, research and development time for the way that you practice relationships and pleasure and sex and intimacy? Like, I think that's really where I've land, like, that's where I've got to. Okay,

Adam

well, let's leave it there. Ruby, that's something like a developing your practice fund.

Adam

But yes, pleasure, yes, yes. That's, I think that's great. Let's take that away. Okay, I'm going to be thinking about it

Ruby

only took, like, 40 minutes for us to get to that. That is, that is my answer.

Adam

That's great. Thank you so much. I've loved this conversation.

Ruby

Oh, pleasure, babe. We've got so much more to chat about, but I'll meet you in the town square next Monday. I'll see you there, and then we'll have an orgy afterwards, right?

—

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode!

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX - the idea or this podcast!

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x

Listen to this episode on your podcast player of choice.

Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith.

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex?

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome.

Let’s go!

—

Is group sex the way to a better world?

My guest in this episode is Leanne Yau, who runs the @polyphiliablog viral accounts across social media. Leanne is a polyamory educator who, among many other things, wants people to know more about group sex. Leanne told me how group sex and polyamory are different; and then we went on to discuss the social politics of it all. From the question of whether more people are getting into group sex to the need to de-stigmatise polyamory, Leanne has a lot to say!

She also wants you to know that if group sex is something you fancy, you should try it — and Leanne can help you do it well. It’s a great conversation and Leanne is great fun as a guest!

Adam

Leanne Yau, welcome to Free Sex. Hi. It's nice to be here. It's really great to have you. You got to tell me. What do we have to do to build a world where we can have the sex that we want?

Leanne

Well, if we want a world where everyone can have the sex that they want, then I think that also includes being able to have the relationships that you want. And that's kind of what my work is all about. I educate people about polyamory, non monogamy, sex positivity, group sex I do workshops and lectures about how to have a good threesome and things like, right? I have a lot to say about polyamory and group sex in particular,

Adam

right? Okay, so that's our, like, our topic for today really is polyamory and group sex. Now, I think I've got to represent a lot of people here when I say, like, isn't that the same thing?

Leanne

Yeah. So, like, I mean, there are definitely a lot of polyamorous people who have group sex, but there are also people who are polyamorous who don't have group sex, and there are also people who have group sex who are not polyamorous, right? Um, so I guess, like, I could break it down a little bit more, um, polyamory is like a subset of non monogamy, which is basically like any relationship that is not monogamous, where you know everyone with, like, you know consent and you know everyone's kind of knowledge and whatever engages in multiple partnerships. So, like, non monogamous partnerships are like kind of they can be multiple sexual ones, like one romantic and multiple sexual. And polyamory is the type of non monogamy where you can have multiple romantic partnerships, specifically, rather than, you know, an open relationship, say, like, where you have, like, one romantic relationship and multiple kind of more casual secondary sexual partnerships, right? And, yeah, group sex may or may not be a part of that. So, yeah, yeah.

Adam

Well, just hearing you outline that is really, really useful. And it also made me think about another thing that I think a lot of people come across when they're thinking about this world or they're entering in this world, is that a lot of it sounds quite technical. Like, the word non monogamy sounds kind of like big and ugly, and polyamory is like new to some people, and it gets people like you and me into conversations about definitions and things like that. So like, what do you say to people who are like trying to understand what these different ways of being and ways of loving and ways of like living are about how to, you know, because it seems quite intimidating for a lot of people. I think because of the language,

Leanne

um, I mean, yeah, I agree that non monogamy is clunky. I don't think we really have a better term for at the moment that is in popular usage, because imagine if we called like everyone who was gay, like, non heterosexual, like that doesn't make any sense.

Adam

That's a really good point. I've not thought about that before,

Leanne

yeah, but, you know, like, it's, it really sucks to be kind of defined by something that you're not, you know, same, like, with, like, non binary, right? Like, you're still kind of, like, like, asserting that, like, that is a binary you're trying to move away from. Yeah, anyway. Um, so yeah, like, but I mean, generally, if I'm, like, kind of speaking to, like, your average person, like, I just say, you know, like, I'm in an open relationship. Like, that means we, you know, exclusivity is not part of the agreement. Like, and, yeah, like, we tell each other what's going on. We both really love it, yeah, and yeah, like, I, or I kind of explain it in terms of my current structure, like I have two partners, and I also have like a smattering of, like, friends I hook up with occasionally, and yeah, like, I have like, a lot of kind of fluidity and how I navigate my my kind of connections with people, So not just like, romantically and sexually, but also platonically, yeah? And I think that is, like, one of, one of the major benefits, like, of the life that I live, because there isn't an inherent assumption that, like, oh, like, if you're too close with your friend, then, like, you know that's gonna be bad for your relationship with your partner. Yeah. It's kind of like every, every dynamic that I have kind of stands more independently. And I think that's that introduces a level of, like, fluidity, fluidity and also intimacy that I that I really enjoy. And it also makes it a lot easier to, like, have group sex. I'm actually trying to organise, like, one of my friends with benefits, like, really wants to organise a gang bang, and it's, it's really hard to do because we have to, like, vet so many people, but like, it's, yeah, we're trying to, we're trying to, we're trying to get a team together, right?

Adam

Yes, yeah. So that's been a lot of fun. Avengers Assemble, yes, which I'm assuming is the name of the WhatsApp group, that telegram group that you're using for that. Yeah. Know

Leanne

what? We hadn't set one up yet. But when, when I do, I think I will do that. That's funny.

Adam

Oh, Power Rangers, maybe. So that, like everyone's got their distinct power and their, you know, different. Well, anyway, we can get into costumes. But I don't know that might be another thing, um, group sex. Then let's talk about group sex. Um, what is it? Do you think that holds people back from exploring group sex? Oh,

Leanne

so many things. I think probably the most obvious is, like mono normativity, which is, yeah, like, the institutionalisation of monogamy, like, as warm as, like, the only pathway to like healthy, healthy sex, or healthy relationships, or just like a healthy life in general, there's a lot of shoulds that people live by in life, I would say, in general, not just when it comes to relationships and sex and so yeah, like, I think that kind of group sex is seen as, I guess, deviant behaviour that you know, like, yeah, people have a lot of sexual hang ups about because of the assumption that like, yeah, like you, you should be having sex with one person, or, like, for the purposes of procreation or whatever. And I also think that like, because of all of that, there's also sex negativity that comes into it. So people, yeah, just kind of shaming themselves or shaming other people and assuming that, like, it's just kind of something that slotty people do when you know, like, I mean, obviously there's nothing wrong with being a slut. I am very open about being one. Yeah. However, like, yeah. Like, you don't necessarily have to identify as one to have really enjoyable group sex, and it doesn't have to be like, your whole identity. It just might be something that you enjoy. And people get lots of different things out of group sex. Yeah, so, yeah, there's so many different motivations to have it, but people are really just mired and guilt and shame around it. And I think finally, I think people just don't know how to go about it. Like threesomes are like a super common fantasy. There's a study that the Kinsey Institute did, like, and the numbers are something like 90 like, over 90% of men and over 80% of women, like, have, like, had a threesome fantasy. Or, like, you know, yeah, have fantasised about a threesome at one point. So, you know, that's most people and, you know, but we don't really have as much of a blueprint on, like, how to engage in group sex. I think people are intimidated by the idea, you know, we don't even have good sex education for, like, one on one sex, right? You know, like, I think people flounder, like, with with group sex. So, yeah, yeah, I would say those are the Hangouts around it.

Adam

Yeah, it's really interesting because, like, like you said, we don't really have good framework for talking about it and, like, negotiating it and finding it and all of that. And it's, yeah, it's one of those things that, like, has been around as long as people have been having sex. And, you know, there's, like, records of it in different cultures, in different times, from all over people engaging in all sorts of different ways. And that alone just proves that, wow, like that there is a world where that's very possible and that that is normal for those people that want to do that. And the fact that now we kind of look at those as like historical artefacts, is the proof that, like, we do not live in that world right now,

Leanne

like, there's so many, like, paintings and stuff like, it's really funny, like the Romans. It all goes back to the Romans,

Adam

right? Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so I think that that question of like, how to like, find it, how to negotiate into it. How to frame it is really interesting. Can you give me some of the things that you talk about with people when they're asking you about that, or when you're giving a workshop about group sex? Like, what? What are the the things that enable people to move into that?

Leanne

Yeah, I think, like, the first thing is to think about like, whether you're doing it for the right reasons. I mean, I would say that for like, literally anything, for anything, yeah, but I think for like, if you're engaging in non monogamy, like, whether it's like, an open relationship or polyamory, or like, a threesome, or whatever, like, I think it's important to think about like, why? Like, what excites you about it, right? So you can get part of, like, what the core of this desire or this fantasy is, and also to figure out, like, you know, whether this is, like, a healthy reason, you know, like, whether you should go ahead. Like, based on that, I go through a lot of like, potential motivations to have a threesome or to just engage in non monogamy, like, in general. So, like, the super common ones that come up are like, you know, people want, like, excitement and novelty, you know, like, it's it's hard to get the variety that you can very easily get through non monogamy, like in a one to one monogamous relationship. And I think it's also very easy to get complacent. Some. Times in a monogamous relationship, like, if you've just been the same with the same person for a very long time, and so people like to mix things up and like try different things and do something new and have, like, a variety of experiences that they wouldn't be able to have otherwise. So as part of that, I guess, like, self exploration and self discovery is another really common reason, you know, people like wanting to kind of learn something about themselves, whether it's like, you know, like a king dynamic that they're really interested in, or like a particular sexual fantasy, or even exploring their sexuality, like my first threesome, like I had when I was like, I think, 18 or 19, and I had, in the context of like me wanting to explore my bisexuality. And, yeah, it was pretty funny, actually, because before, I was like, huh, I don't know if I'm into women, you know, I'll have a threesome, and then I have threesome. And I was like, Okay, I guess I enjoy this. I guess, I guess I'm

Adam

bisexual. Now, you proved it, yeah, yeah.

Leanne

And, yeah. And I guess, like, you know, for me, it was, like, very intimidating to, like, think about, like, sleeping with women alone, like at the time, and so, like, having group sex was a really great way for me to feel like, you know, I had kind of my partner with me who, like, I was familiar with, and like, you know, who was, like my teammate, I guess, like in that, in that whole endeavour and then, but I was also exploring my queerness, and that was really exciting for me. So, yeah, like, I think, you know, having, if you're doing this, in the context of, like a relationship, like having someone with you to kind of explore that together is, like a very unique bonding experience, you know, no matter how it goes, right, even if it ends up being catastrophic, yeah? So that

Adam

on, on open house, on that channel four programme where, like, couples go away to a fancy mansion, and, yeah, I really like those. I do too, and it's what, but one of the things that's really interesting is that a lot of couples say we're here because we want to, we're exploring opening our relationship, and it's because one of us is, but you know, they're, they're, I think, always man and woman couples, like heterosexual COVID couples, and we're interested in exploring bisexuality, but it's almost always the woman who is interested in basically having sex with a woman and the man is interested in also being there when that happens.

Leanne

That is, like, actually, like, that was my criticism of season one as well. I think they changed that. They changed things up a little bit in the second season. Like, in the second season there was a couple. There was a couple where, like, the guy was monogamous, he wasn't interested at all. He was just, you know, wanting, like, his partner to, like, explore her sexuality or whatever. And then there was another couple where, like, both of them were bisexual, and

Adam

that's right, and they wanted to explore that, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Leanne

yeah. So I'm in a, I'm in, like, a BI for BI relationship as well. So like, yeah, it's really great to have that represented. Because, like, I don't, like, I hate the stereotype that, like, every bisexual woman is with a straight man, because, like, yes, personally interested in straight men, yeah,

Adam

could be good. I'm curious about what you think about apps and how they can play a role in helping people to enter the world of group sex. I remember when there was an app launched that used to be called thrinder Yes, until they got sued by Tinder and changed their name to field, and now it's field and it's it's grown and it's still going. I don't know how you know different people probably have different experiences of success on there and stuff like that, but it seems like apps, you know, have just as like Grindr did it for men who have sex with men about 15 years ago, or whenever that launched. Then more recently, there's been more different kinds of apps for group sex and other kinds of things. So what's the role that they are playing from where you sit?

Leanne

Um, yeah. So I use field. My partner and I met on field, actually, so, and we've been together, like, three years now, so field success story right there. And we actually met because at the time, I was dating someone who was straight, the last straight man I ever dated, and I was, like, specifically on the app to find bisexual men to have a threesome with. Because, like, I at that point, had had, like, every configuration of threesome you could think of, but I had not had a threesome with two men who were also playing with each other. And I that was something I really wanted to experience. And like, at that time, my then to be partner, was also looking for the same thing. And so that was something that, like, we matched and connected over and then, yeah, ended up having some reasons together, you know, fall for each other on the way. Now we're here. And, yeah, so, like, It's

Adam

a tale as old as time. It's got Disney vibes,

Leanne

a timeless classic. Yeah. Um, but, um, yeah. So a field was a really great addition to, like the dating app circuit, I think because, I think previously, what a lot of couples had been doing was quite unethical, like they would previously just like, you know, make like a woman profile, and then like queer women on there. And I think a lot of people were really annoyed, rightfully so, like on dating apps, especially if they, you know, thought they were matching with a woman, and then they're speaking to like her boyfriend or something, who they're not interested in, and it's yeah, like, so, so that was that was not okay. And so I think field, like, filled a niche where they were like, hey, you know you can set up a couple profile, you can set up separate profiles, and you know, you can, there was much more encouragement of, like, just individuals matching with individuals, and people being open about like, them being like in a relationship, and being able to talk to different people. And like field also has a group chat function, which I think is really helpful with that. So, like, it's just yeah, it's filled a niche kind of that was very much needed. I think, like, obviously, people can still be unethical in other ways. I talk a lot about, like, a practice called unicorn hunting, which, like, is a term that is used in both, like the non monogamous and polyamorous communities, but have different definitions, which makes it very confusing. Oh,

Adam

interesting. Can you cycle through both. Yes. So

Leanne

in like, the non monogamy slash swinging world, like a unicorn is basically just like a person, usually a woman, usually bisexual, who is down to join, like a couple, usually male, female, like four, four, threesome, like, and it was like, it doesn't have to be like a long term thing. Could be like a one time thing, like at a party or whatever. And then in like the polyamorous world, like unicorn hunting, sorry, in the polyamorous world, unicorns are, you know, basically the same thing. But instead of like, joining for threesome, they're joining for, like a polyamorous relationship, like a three way throttle relationship, which is significantly more complicated, significantly more risky. And, yeah, just like, a lot more things involved because of, you know, like the emotional intimacy and all of that. So, yeah, like, a unicorn hunting is, I think, is defined in like, lots of different ways. Like, some people just say, like, Oh, if you're a couple looking for a third, whether it's a threesome or a triad, like, that's unicorn hunting, whereas, like, my definition of it tends to be more like, well, if you're like, looking for someone to basically treat like a sex object and then discard when they're inconvenient to you, yeah, like, in a way that like disenfranchises them, that Like doesn't take their needs into account, etc, that I call that unicorn hunting, yeah. So, yeah. Like, but in the non monogamous community, like people talk about this a lot, you know, in terms of, like, people, couples, like, you know, transitioning from a monogamous relationship and thinking that finding a unicorn is, like, the easiest slash safest way to get into, like, the open relationship sphere. And then, you know, like, the world comes crashing down when

Adam

they rapidly reality.

Leanne

Yes, yeah. So I talk, I talk a lot about that, and I think couples have to be very careful about like, what they're signing up for, especially because, you know, yeah, like the person you're bringing in, like, also has like needs and desires of their of their own, yeah? And like I said at the top of this, right? Like, not every non monogamous person has group sex. Like you can have multiple partners, and you can have sex with each of them separately, and you you never have to bring anyone together if you don't want to do that. And I think for some people, like they really underestimate how confronting it is to see your partner having sex with someone else in front of you. Like, not everyone's down for that.

Adam

Yeah, you need to prepare for that, probably, if you haven't seen that before. But I want to ask you, as someone who's like, very much on the internet, as far as I can tell. You know, like, with, you know, you have a really big Instagram account. I don't know about Tiktok. Maybe you've, you're even bigger there. I don't know, because I don't look at I'm on all the platforms, amazing. So, like, I mean, you use that space to share videos, share memes, like you write, you have posts that where you write quite a bit of text, and often pictures of people could chew, or cute things that help to like, convey the message. So I'm interested in, like, what you think, because of that work that you do about the the, I guess, the role of of social media and the internet and that kind of stuff in helping people to learn more about this world so that they don't behave unethically or that or without intention, or, you know, so they don't commit some of those mistakes that you're talking about there. Yeah,

Leanne

I. Absolutely. Um, so I started my page way back in 2020 because I wanted, like to inject some levity into the conversation. I mean, people have been talking about non monogamy online for a very long time. Yeah, lots of books and articles and blogs and podcasts and, you know, lots of fantastic resources that people have developed over the decades, which has been really great, but then I found, personally that, like, a lot of conversations were really serious, and so basically I started a meme page, yeah, that was what it was back in 2020 it was a meme page where I was just, like, making memes about polyamory. And, like, I did not start out for this to become my full time, full time job, yeah, but essentially, the memes blew up overnight, and then in six months, like, like, yeah. Like, it was paying my bills, and so I was, like, it was a matter of kind of, like, I think with the zeitgeist at the time, really helped with that, because especially when people were coming out of lockdown, yeah, people were really excited about non monogamy, like, massive surge in interest, like, around, like, 2021 2022 and that was, you know, I was growing by like, 1000s of followers a day. It was crazy. And so, yeah, like, I think social media with, you know, as with anything else, is a really great tool for spreading information, and kind of spreading like information quite organically, like, and you could be anyone you know, like, you don't have to, like, have had, like, I don't know, like, you don't need to be someone special, basically, like to be posting on the internet about your experiences. It's just like, if people like your stuff and trust what you have to say, then you know, you know, you just organically start kind of growing and reaching more people, which is really great. And you get a lot more kind of diverse and real personal experiences that way, which I think is also really positive. You know, like, I think, I think there is some discourse online about, like, whether you need to be at a certain level of experience to be talking about non monogamy.

Adam

But what do you make of that? What I don't like? I mean, I think that,

Leanne

like, if, if someone, like, has been non monogamous for like, three months and has decided they want to monetize a business out of it, maybe that's a bit questionable. But also, like, I really encourage everyone to be sharing their experiences online, because it is such like a marginalised group, like, you know, like, obviously, like, we're not like, marginalised, like, to the same extent as, like, you know, people of colour or, like, disabled people or queer people or whatever, but like, you know, I mean, we're marginalised in the sense of, like, yeah, like, it's people don't understand the relationship style. People think it's morally wrong. And like, the like, the society that we live in doesn't kind of provide or cater to, like, these types of relationships we face, like, you know, discrimination, like, across like, you know, like, like, family rights and visitation rights and hospitals and whatever right, um, and so, yeah, like, I think anyone, anything that anyone can say about it, like, even if it's like, just sharing like thoughts they're having, you know, in the shower, like, about non monogamy, like, is contributing to lots of useful discourse. But, but, yeah, I started my page like to, I think, kind of, you know, take, have a more humorous take, I suppose, and like, a more short form, take on, like, lots of conversations that people were already having. And, yeah, to also kind of joke about things that, like, people don't usually joke about, like, you know, how horrible it is to have multiple breakups, or, like, how, how much, like, you know, kind of scheduling, like factors into non monogamy and things like that. And so, yeah, I guess people liked it, so that's what I'm doing full time now.

Adam

And what do you make of the fact that a lot of people are using the using accounts like yours to, like, really explore and discover things about themselves and maybe sharing them with their partners or potential partners, and it's a part of, like, ongoing kind of adult sex education or something. Like, what do you make of that? Yeah,

Leanne

I mean, like, obviously, like, I'm always very moved when I meet people in real life. Because, like, I, you know, people come up to me in like, supermarkets and whatever, and they're like, oh, like, you know, like, I follow you, and, you know, like your account helped me and my partner open up our relationship. Or, like, my partner didn't really understand polyamory, but then they started following you, and now, like, we've been like, you know, going on for like, four years, like, happily open, or, like, whatever, right? I'm always, you know, I'm so moved by these stories. Like, it's really great, like, and, you know, like, I try and be responsible about it, like, I brush myself up on, like, the knowledge, like I'm qualified as a sex educator. I'm currently training to become a sex therapist, and I'm, you know, always reading books and stuff. So, like, I'm not like, you know, putting out misinformation or just, like, random thoughts, like, yeah, and. I do think there is an ethical responsibility in that regard. Like, if, like, a lot of people kind of trust you with information like that, you know, I want to be putting out stuff that is accurate and helpful and also kind of sharing, like, personal stories, right? Like, of like, when things aren't going so well, so people kind of can find that relatable, or can find a community of people to, like, talk to about it and that kind

Adam

of, yeah, yeah. Why do you think community is so important around this topic, for people to, like, find connections, and not just find people in order to, like, have sex with them, or start a, you know, bigger polyamorous relationship with them, but to even have these kinds of conversations that we're having, like, about why group sex is stigmatised or whatever, like even to have those conversations, why is community so important? Because

Leanne

if you're a polyamorous or non monogamous person and you try and get advice about your relationship and monogamous person, it goes really fucking badly, right? You know? Like, I think so I do a relationship coaching I do, like, peer support, you know, and have done for like, a couple of years now. And like, cannot tell you the number of clients that come in who are just like, you know, I've booked a session with you because, like, There's no one I can talk to about this, yeah. Or, you know, I tried to talk to people about it, and all they've said is, well, if you're struggling, then, like, you know, just go back to monogamy. Like, why are you doing this if you're finding it so hard? Like, you know, surely you'd only want to do it if you're having a good time all the time, which is not realistic, right? Like, if the monogamous person was having a bad time, like, you're not going to tell them, Oh, maybe you should try polyamory, yeah? And

Adam

although, usually I tell them to break up, but that's like a joke, that's actually not advice, yeah,

Leanne

exactly. So, like, yeah, so I think, like, community is important, so then, you know, you're just kind of taken seriously. Like, yeah. People aren't immediately assuming that, like, all your problems stem from the relationship type that you're practising. Yeah? I mean, even therapists are guilty of this, like, you know, I'm training to be to become a therapist, because, like, I, like, I've seen so many people just be like, you know, like, I had couples therapy with my partner, like, to kind of explore, like, opening up, and my therapist just told us, told me that I was in the wrong and that I was commitment, avoidant or something, right? Yeah. And so, you know, like, yeah. Like, this is what I mean by mono normativity. Like, it's kind of so entrenched that, like, just any idea of, like, desiring multiple partners is seen as, like, something that is deficient, like, Yeah, or like, you know, maybe you're like, have avoidant attachment, or whatever, like, when that's not the case necessarily. So, yeah, I think a community is important so that like people, like understand the experiences that you're having. They aren't immediately going to pathologize you. They aren't going to, you know, just assume that like you, your problems will be solved if you went back to monogamy and yeah, like, you just kind of have a space to be messy without immediately having judgement and stigma from people just being like, oh, like, you're having a bad time. That must mean that all polyamorous people always have a bad time. Yeah, exact relationships. Like, yeah, you know, like, it's not going to be like, an indictment on the community, or, like, the relationship style if you're among people who just get it.

Adam

I just wonder if we could zoom out for a second from the the community that we're in and the the this, this world that we're in that we're talking about here. And I want to ask you, like, do you think that something is shifting in the broader society and broader community around how we see polyamory and group sex. And I know that maybe those are, that's a question a and a question B, actually different. Yeah,

Leanne

yeah, absolutely. I think that, you know, I said earlier, like there was, like a bit of a surge in interest in non monogamy in like 2021 and 2022 I think lockdown and yeah, so I think, like, polyamory and like these terms, like, went from just being, like, very niche French things that most people had not heard about to like now I think, like, you ask your average person, they've probably have at least heard of it, they might even know someone who's doing it, um, and they like, they might have a better understanding of what it is. So, yeah, like, I think definitely there's been a shift in that way, like, it just among like, I guess, the mainstream. However, I think that has come with some downsides. I think that, like, obviously, I've spoken a little bit about like, you know, just judgement and marginalisation and stigma and whatever, like, from monogamous people to non monogamous people. But I think that, like with this increased visibility of people who are polyamorous or whatever like, I think there's been a lot of not more self policing going on. And what I mean by that is suddenly I'm getting a lot of people online just being. Like, I'm polyamorous, and polyamory is about, like, the love and the intimacy and the connection. We're not dirty, and we are not like those swingers who are just, you know, using people's bodies and having group like, you know, degenerate group sex, right? Like, what is happening? Yeah? Because, you know, like, firstly, we're not, we're more similar than different. And I think also, like, where is this such a negativity coming from? Well, I do know where it's coming from. Like, I think that the polyamorous community is currently suffering from the same kind of issues that, like the LGBTQIA plus community were, like, when they started gaining visibility where I think some people are like so invested in, I guess, assimilating and pondering to like the kind of monogamous heterosexual majority that like they will like shut on other people in their community to be like, No, but I'm the acceptable One.

Adam

Yeah, it made me think of people at LGBTQ plus pride who, like, they're sort of mainstream gays who are like, No, we don't want to allow the kinky guys or the pup guys in masks to be at pride because, like, prides got to be family friendly, yeah, like it's No, it doesn't, or whatever,

Leanne

like, exactly, or like, you know, lesbian gay people who are like, transphobic, or like, you know, trans people who think that non binary people, people who use lots of Neo pronouns, are like, you know, too weird to be acceptable. And like, bringing the whole community down, you know, definitely, yeah, making everyone weird Exactly. And it's kind of like, you know, no one's gonna win if there's this much, this much in fighting, yeah. And also, you know, like, it's sexual liberation for all, like, what, you know, like, it's, it's not about like, liberation for those of us who are, like, acceptable enough, and, I guess, like, behaving in ways that are, you know, I guess, palatable, that that that get the freedoms that we're fighting for, you know, like it's everyone, yeah,

Adam

yeah, exactly, yeah. So, I mean, I think that, I think you're right about that, that, like there is, it's great that there is more and more people knowing about polyamory, and maybe even thinking about it and thinking about group sex, but it does have those, some of those downsides as well, in terms of, like, people start policing the label, and the internet is like a classic place for like, virtue signalling and policing and stuff like that, isn't it? And it's, it's, it's kind of going to be interesting to see how that unfolds over the next five years or so. I think, what do you think about that? How will it unfold over the next five years or so, this conversation?

Leanne

Yeah. I mean, I think, like, speaking in the broader context of, like, the massive culture war that's going on, and how, like, queer people and especially trans people have been like, kind of Yeah, dragged into all that. Yeah. I think change is going to be very slow, because it kind of feels like a, you know, one step forward, two steps back, kind of situation sometimes. I mean, you know, like, literally, the other week, basically, like, I was interviewed in the times, because, like, there's like a LGBT branch within the Scottish fire brigades union who kind of submitted a motion to be discussed at like a conference next month, or something about, like, you know, asking like the Scottish fire brigades union to consider like, protections for polyamorous people. Okay, you know, it's emotion. It's very innocent. It's all. It doesn't harm anyone,

Adam

as in, as in, like, employee protections for firefighters who are yes, Molly, amorous, yeah,

Leanne

I think something like that, yeah. And basically, basically, like some random turf. Julie Bendel, Oh, yeah. Who like, I'm pretty sure, runs like a lesbian hate group against trans people, trans women. Specifically, she she wrote about it in her sub stack, just being like, you know, like, Is this really what we're focusing on? And this is part of, like, the woke brigade or whatever. And then the Daily Mail picked it up, and then, like, the Scottish Express picked it up. And then I was interviewed in the Times about it. Just them being like, what's your take? And I was a bit like, this is such a non issue, yeah, like being asked about this, yes, exactly, but yeah. So, like, I think, like, you know, like the kind of criticisms and hatred that was being directed at gay people, and still is, but, you know, like, back when it was, like, you know, at its peak, like I was being directed to gay people. Was gay people first, and it was trans people, and then now kind of polyamorous people, like, as we've gained more visibility, are being kind of like, lumped in with, like, the queer community. Well, that makes it an intersection. But like, yeah,

Adam

yeah, that makes me wonder if there's something that the polyamory community. Can learn from the way that that happened to, you know, gay and lesbian and then LGBTQ plus people, which was like their their rights, our rights were like, kind of built and won on the grounds of our identity. Like this is a core part of who we are. You can't take it away from me. I'm I'm a gay man. You have to respect that. That's a core part of who I am, and you have to see me for that. There's interesting political tactics about whether polyamory is like an identity, like it's not, I think we all agree it's not the same as like a sexual identity, in a way that a gay, gay man has been seen as a sexual identity, you know. So I'm just interesting, interested to wonder where that might go in terms of, like, what are the lessons that the polyamory community can learn in order to get more visibility, not necessarily more rights, but more visibility, more respect? What can they learn from the LGBTQ movement or feminist movement or other things, you know? Yeah.

Leanne

I mean, I think, like, on, like, the polyamory has an identity or choice thing. Like, I do think that, like, the Born This Way movement kind of thing, like, was like, I think kind of fucked it a little bit for everyone else, because I don't think that we should be asserting, like, Well, I had no choice this, right? Therefore you should accept me. Yeah? You know, it's like, yeah, like, I mean, ultimately, I think I believe in freedom of choice, like, even if being gay or trans or whatever was was choice. And I'm not saying it is, but even if it was like, I think that that still means that we deserve rights, yeah. And I think that's like, the same case for, like, non monogamy and polyamory. I mean, I personally experience it as an identity. But I mean in the same sense that, like, I identify as an extrovert, like, you know, there's something about like, certain kind of brain wirings and kind of personality traits. Like, yeah, some people have more like, of a predisposition on monogamy than others. And I think depending on where you exist on that spectrum, like you could go either way, or you might feel very strongly about one or the other. And, yeah, and I think, I think that that, to me, feels like an identity, but, like, equally, I mean, some people engage with it as a choice, so, yeah, like, but, but, I mean, there are studies about this. Like, you know, there's, there's, there's a word that I've seen in kind of some studies called like sociosexual, which is, like, basically trying to like place on a spectrum, like people who like desire more sexual variety and adventure and that kind of thing, who tend to tend to be more predisposed to non monogamy. So I think there's research emerging about it. So like, even if, like, it might be the case in the future that it turns out polyamory is an identity, yeah, and that can be scientifically proven, no longer how that will change the discourse then,

Adam

well, actually, I did have a guest recently on free sex, Sari van Anders, who has developed a model called Sexual configurations theory, which is a theory like a framework for understanding our desires and our bodies in relation all at the same time. And like you know, so she's trying to move away from the sexuality labelling idea of like you are gay or heterosexual, and also even moving away from the spectrum idea, which is that you might sit somewhere on the spectrum of heterosexual to homosexual or something. And actually, sexual configuration theory has, like different dynamics at play, and one of those dynamics at play is partner number. So like you have, you have a sort of that's a component of your set of your sexual configuration is how many partners you like to have sex with. And of course, it could be one, just as much as it could be 10 or infinite or the exact same two, only ever those two, you know, it's it's quite an open number. So it just seems like the more research is done on this kind of thing, and the more thinking, which is can be quite philosophical, is done on this, the more complicated and complex it gets. And it's interesting to watch how that is happening at the same time as the internet and social media, and the way that we talk about these things, and everyone being time pressed requires us to be ever more simplistic and, like, straight to the point about it, these two things seem to be a paradox to me, and I wonder where that's going to go.

Leanne

Yeah, yeah. I guess, like, you know, we'll, wait and see

Adam

exactly. And in the meantime, we can look at your funny memes of Pikachu making statements about, you know, inferring about group sex and polyamory. So we've definitely got polyphilia to follow in the meantime. So I think we should leave it there. Leanne, thank you. Is there anything else that you wanted

Leanne

to add. Um, I mean, you know, I think that everyone who wants to try group sex should, should? I should give it a go. I think that, like, even if it ends up being catastrophic, you'll learn something about yourself, yes, and if you need help with that, yeah, check out my work. I've got lots of workshops. And posts, and I also offer private coaching. So yeah, amazing.

Adam

Thank you so much for the work that you do. It's super important, and it's amazing that you've been building this community and a part of that community. So yeah, thank you for all that work.

—

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode!

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX - the idea or this podcast!

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x

Listen to this episode on your podcast player of choice.

Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith.

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex?

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome.

Let’s go!

Are sex events and fetish gear too expensive?

My guest in this episode is Matt Skully, who’s a performer, curator, events producer and occasional sex worker. His heart is as big as his desires as dark—and he’s got a long list of ideas that could make sex more financially accessible to people.

Fetish gear costs money, event tickets aren’t getting cheaper, and sometimes you have to travel big, expensive distances to get to the place where you can enjoy the sex you want. We don’t talk enough about how wealth inequality holds us back from sex (although check out episode 040 with Eva Oh!), so I was thrilled that Matt wanted to talk about this. I really enjoyed hearing about his experiences working the door in fetish clubs, and talking through his ideas for how we can build a world of free sex.

Adam

Matt Skully, welcome to Free Sex.

Matt

Thanks for having me.

Adam

Thank you very much for coming. And it's really nice to do this interview in person with you to share space and hold space.

Matt

I know, oh, I just wanted to come and see what your gaff looked like.

Adam

Well, how can we build a world of free sex? money?

Matt

Yes, investment might be an investment. I mean, I always, well, I said to you earlier is like, I don't think you can ever really have free sex. And I think sex always comes at some sort of cost, whether that be financial, emotional, but I do think, yeah, to get to a space where people can enjoy, I guess, sex on a freer basis.

I think the biggest hurdle is kind of money... and events and as a sex worker and In various sort of avenues of like the sex industry for years. And I think money, if you've got it, you have access to a lot more things. If you don't have it, it's a lot harder. Yeah, I grew up in the place where I didn't, I didn't have money growing up, and, you know, I have managed to sort of interweave into spaces and gone and go to spaces and experience things which I've just probably wouldn't be able to afford to do, and that's come through work, because you've worked in those has worked, yeah, and I think, you know, I, I predominantly were within the Fetish scene, and have for a long time. And I think there is, I think that's a space where people do invest in but you can do that investing. You can obviously invest in it, emotionally and and such. But I think physically to invest in it, it costs money. Yeah,

Adam

so I am really grateful that you're bringing this point of money to the podcast, actually, and it's connected to this episode that I did recently with Eva Oh, where she talked about give everyone a universal basic income.

Matt

Can I just jump in? I saw I sent her an article. There was actually an experiment that happened in Canada in the 70s, yeah, where they had two small towns where they did actually give one town a smaller basic income? Yeah, I'll send it to you, but just to see what would happen and essentially, essentially what happened is the town that were given a universe for universal basic income show showed higher productivity because people were willing to go to work and one. To sort of earn extra money, yeah, because their baseline was already COVID. So actually, it's an experiment that's already been done. Yeah, it would be really fascinating to work out what, how people sex lies or impacted by that. Yeah, but I couldn't find anything. I was trying to Google because I sent it to either afterwards, yeah, but I could, I couldn't find anything around sort of sex, or sex based stuff around that.

Adam

I think there's one study of an experiment like that where there was higher divorce and higher separations in the town that got the free money, that got universal basic income, because when you're not tied in financially to your relationship, then you have more freedom. And so if that's the case, then it kind of makes sense that, like, you might swap sexual partners this as well. Like, what frequently, I don't know, but like, the thing is, what she was trying to say in that episode, which I agree with, is how, like, well, if you, if you're not just trying to cover your basic needs all the time by working and by spending most of your days like, you know, working, then you have more time to explore the things that you want to do, which, for some people, will be sex, and will be more different types of sex. And so this is kind of like part two of that episode, almost, because you're going to talk about about the financial barriers that stop people from having the sex that they want. And I think that's especially true with the Fetish scene, because of the cost of gear and because a lot of it is events based. So I guess my first question about it, then is like, what are some examples of the costs that people come up against in the world, as you see it, in terms of the kind of sex that they want to have, and what are those costs?

Matt

I think, if you're exploring your sexuality and you want to explore maybe the more extreme size of that, a lot of it is, as you just said, like going to those spaces that sort of cater to that does cost money. And if you're living in, you know, essentially not a city or, you know, you know, access to those spaces are always going to be difficult, because it's paying to travel as well. Travel, yeah, but like, you know, Ticket, ticket prices aren't cheap. If you want to go to sort of like, bigger spaces, you know, or curated spaces, even, you know, there is that's an accessibility issue, but then you have to be in appropriate attire. You also might have to buy appropriate equipment, and even if you don't want to go to these spaces and just want to explore that thing at home, that's still going to cost you money, it's still going to cost you time and energy finding those and sort of resources and finding other people who might want to explore that with you.

Adam

Is that one of the reasons why, for a lot of people in the Fetish scene, their fetish practice, if you like, becomes like a main hobby, like, if outside of work, and it's like a big thing that they spend their time, their free time, and their free money, doing, which leads to the which leads to the kind of like, sometimes the perception that, like these people are just, like, obsessed with sex or obsessed with fetish, but it's actually like, this just takes their time and then free money

Matt

I mean, I'm biased because, like, yeah, I've worked. I work it so I see all the time, you know, I'm surrounded by it constantly. So I do think there is maybe a mixture of people who, you know, might just have it as, like a weekend thing and, you know, but you know, that people do invest in their themselves. And I think actually sexuality, and I think having, having the freedom to to do that is is hugely important for people, and people do invest, I think specifically, you know, I've worked in the gay fetish scene for a long time, and like that, a lot of sort of affluent gays who have ex disposable income, like, invest in things they want to do, or things that are going to make them feel good, and like, sex is tied up with that. Yeah, definitely. Um, so yeah, and that's then, that's, like, completely legitimate, obviously, right? Like, yeah, absolutely. I just want to say that on the record, yeah, yeah, no, this group of yeah, you can spend your money on, like, this is a worthwhile thing to spend your money on, yeah, which I know you now,

Adam

but, but it makes it's one of those things where it's something that not a lot of us talk about, when we're talking about how, How class and how wealth inequality really affects us. Because, you know, when we talk about wealth inequality, we're talking about like, people going to food banks whilst there are millionaires, you know, existing. And this is, like, unfair, and that's true, because people need food, but also people need sex, and we never talk about sex as a thing like that, like people need and that people want, and it should be their right to be able to explore that, but not having enough money holds us back.

Matt

Yeah, and I think even down to things like being able to afford things like the internet so you can learn, you can learn and educate yourself on on sex or sexual practices, you know, that is a barrier for some people. People, and that's something we might not necessarily feel so strong now, but, you know, as a 15 year old, yeah, I, you know, I remember getting the internet for the first time, yeah. But before that, it was like, Well, if you want to explore sex, you go out cottage, yeah, you go cruising like that, and you learn about it that way. And so that, again, that sort of becomes an accessibility thing. But I think, yeah, I think in terms of, like, having money and and class, like, there is a distinction, especially within, I guess, the sex industry as well, because, you know, like, I've, I've worked as a sex worker. Still do work as a as a DOM occasionally, but has also, have also explored other things within that world. And I was very lucky that I didn't I, I fell into sex work, and it was kind of a natural progression for me and I, but I didn't do out of necessity, necessity. I did it because I wanted to do it, and I was and I valued and understood the power of of sex, and I was also very mature, younger person. So it became a natural thing for me to sort of go into and I think, you know, free, free sex, and the idea of sort of selling settings. You know, it, for me, it didn't come from a place out of of desperation or necessity. It became out of like, Oh, I just want to do it, and I'm pretty good at it. So, yeah, yeah.

Adam

This is really, really, really interesting. I'm really enjoying this conversation. It's just making me think like of just so many different things and ways to think about it. So do you think that, like fetish parties and fetish events need to have a bursary fund for low income people? Do they need to be giving out free gear for those who can't afford it? Or second hand have? Do they have to have a second hand marketplace? You know, what is it that they need, that the Fetish thing needs to do in order to reduce this barrier?

Matt

I mean, it's quite interesting, but, I mean, there's several things I can kind of mention. So like, so I work with, talk to garden, and I work on the door as an outfit checker. And part of, I think when you go into any fetish space, it is an acquire, a requirement, that you have to be an appropriate attire. And I think that essentially, the one thing that always comes up is like, Oh, I can't afford X, Y and Z, and I'm like, you don't have to afford, you don't have to go and spend 300 pounds on on latex. You could be creative and like, you can things are, there is accessibility to clothing items in that instance, which isn't going to break the bank, but you just have to be a bit creative in like, I buy leathers, like second hand and, you know, on eBay, vintage like that. That, in itself, is a barrier, but I don't think it's one that I think that is one that is actually becoming easier for people to access, like clothing, clothing. You know, I worked at backstreet for many years, and, you know, their policy, they had a strict dress code policy, but like a leather bar, right? It was a leather bar in Mile end, closed, a few years ago, RIP, RIP. But, you know, they had a very strict policy on on attire to be able to enter that that space. And quite right, I think if you're going into curated space, and you know, you have to be dressed appropriately, if people sort of come up against that and just don't want to adhere to that, for me, I always take the stance of, if you're not going to respect that rule, you're not going to respect anyone else there, and you're not going to respect the other rules that are in place in that space. And for me, that is like kind of a bit of a red flag, yeah, but the backstreet, you know, you had to be in leathers or or fetish geared a certain bit a certain percent. But we also had loads of stuff that people were either donated or left behind. That meant that you could go and access that space.

Adam

That reminds me of being at school where, if you've got your PE kit, and they'd have like, a box of like, other kids, like sway PE kit that been left over that they'd give you, you'd always there

Matt

was always like, there was like, I think was like a blue leather jacket, yeah, that you had one guy come and been coming for years, always requested the same fucking jacket. And I was like, and he loved that. He loved wearing that jacket. Loved wearing that jacket, yeah? But in terms of accessibility, you know, that's a great like, Backstreet is a great example of, right? Okay, well, so we want to come to that space, you kind of have to make the effort, yeah, and, you know, but there's also something there to help you. And you know, part of another could, like leather tradition is there's often a gifting of, like, leather from elders to sort of the younger people, which I think has maybe died a bit of a death, yeah, yeah, I guess, because the leather scene in general, like, I don't know how, but. Big it is now. I know it is still there, but I don't think it doesn't seem to be as big or as present as it was in, like, 60s, 70s, 80s, right? Fair to say. I mean, you know a lot more about that history. The little thing is, is big. I think it's changed, probably, like, the, you know, I'm talking about, like, the clubs, yeah, for sure. I think, like, yeah. I mean in terms of spaces, there's just not as much spaces. And I think maybe that's more of a case of people can access sex a lot easier now through apps, through websites, you know, and through other types of avenues, you know, if you might, you don't necessarily have to go to a leather bar to go and have right sex. You can go to a circuit party, yeah, go to chill out. There is much more accessible spaces to go and sort of fulfil that need. But, but in terms of fetish clubs, you know, I think some spaces have looked to implement discounted tickets for people in low incomes, which I think is a great sort of stepping stone, but also, like, in terms of, like, physical accessibility for people, you know, I think there is a lot more. I think there. We're living in a culture which is much more aware of making those sort of spaces accessible to the most amount of people, yeah as possible. And I think that's that is, yeah, great. That's right, yeah. And right, yeah. And there's a lot of advocacy for that, which I think is, is the way, then the direction this sort of scene goes in a positive way.

Adam

But it's making me think about something that you said earlier, about, um, about distance and travel. So, you know, even if you were doing, organising a footage party and you said, Well, we're going to do it in a space which is physical, it has physical, good, physical accessibility for people who have, you know, different bodies and disabilities, maybe. But then, if that, if it's, let's say, a disabled person who lives 100 miles away, and they're going to have to travel, but they also, they're because of their disability, just in life, things cost more money, like, the kind of train seat that they need, the kind of hotel that they need, and sometimes cost more money. And like, that's not to do with the party, because, you know, unless the parties run in hotels, but it's still one of those things that's like, it's an extra cost. So they might be able to, they might be able to physically access the party. But then there's these extra costs which other people don't have to pay. Able bodied people don't have to pay, for sure, and it's a question of like, how can we change all of our mindsets in society, to just know that, like, that's a that that's a huge barrier for some people,

Matt

yeah, yeah. I think,

Matt

I think things like by be first of all as like working in an event and being aware of that that is someone's reality, yeah, and making sure that you're in a space that is accessible already, and making sure that that is kind of listed Yeah, and also an opportunity for people to ask questions about that space. And like, I know that most spaces I've ever worked in have that, yeah, you know. And it is, it's something that is factored into the night. It's like, I've, I've worked in events for like, 15 years, and it's always been part of that conversation, which is great, but you're right. It is there is the extra cost of having to travel if you're regardless of you know, you have accessibility needs, if you're living in the middle of nowhere and you want to be able to sort of experience and indulge in pleasure and your own sexuality, and the only way to do that is to go to a physical space, like, there is always going to be costs involved, like we talked about Folsom earlier, like in San Francisco. Well, it's Berlin, France and France San Francisco, both are kind of destination places, yeah. And if you're living in London, that's quite a big investment to sort of travel, find a hotel, pack appropriate gear, wear appropriate gear, have access to parties. It's a big It's, um, there's a certain amount of wealth that is attributed to having that experience, yeah, and like, and I've been very lucky, you know, I've always worked in those spaces. So I have got to travel, and I've, you know, you know, I go to Berlin now. I've got friends who live in Berlin. So it's like, for me, that's a cost saving, like, a cost saving for me personally, but like that, if you want to experience that sort of culture and that sort of, like, that sort of, I guess, like sexual liberation that comes at a cost. And, yeah, regardless. And, you know, and you can put in sort of caveats, whether you have disabilities or whether you're how far you're travelling, or, you know what, you know what parties you want to attend to, and if you've got appropriate clothing in the eye for that, you know, there's all the. Different things that you can add on to that. But essentially, it does cost money and it and that's why I think there is almost a bit of a class issue, because that is really only being made accessible to like, think people who are fairly affluent, or people, people like me, who will find the cheapest way to get just work, work in it, and then you have go there. It's the one me emailing, like, do you need, do you need me to come do something?

Adam

But I guess so. What? What's some other solutions? Because I'm, this is a very, you know, free sex, very solution focused. Yeah, good. So thinking about, I mean, because on the one hand, if I win 100 million pound on the lottery, I could, I could endow a foundation which gives grants to people to go to sex parties and fetish events, right? I don't know how you'd administer those grants, and I don't like the idea of it being like a charity. You want to bring me a job I haven't won the lottery. If I had, you could be the director of that foundation. That would be one thing, but it feels like it wouldn't really be doing anything structurally. And so, like some of these other things, like the way that the back street, just like made had this door policy, but then made it possible for people to, you know, go along with the door policy, even whatever their means were, because it had those things that is, like a structural thing within that space that they did, right? And so I'm wondering about what other kind of structural things are there? Like, should people, should the people who have the means be subsidising the travel and the tickets for the other people, apart from overthrowing capitalism? Oh,

Matt

that was gonna be my answer. Well, yeah. I mean, that is the obvious answer, right, yeah.

Adam

But like, you know, what would you what other things that you think we could do?

Matt

I think it's on. I think it's on the individual to find ways, yeah, make things accessible for themselves. Because I think everyone's, everyone is going to come from a different everyone's going to have their own obstacles. Yeah, whether it be wanting to go to physical spaces, yeah, access to, like, sex workers, like it's, everyone's going to have their own thing. So I think it's up to the individual to find routes that kind of make things accessible, and they will work for them and work for them. And like, money is always going to be an issue. But like, I think, you know, there is, I think there are ways you can cut corners, yeah, you know. And like, I'm just going to use like, outfits as an example, yeah. Like, yeah.

Adam

What are your top tips, so finding good gear on vintage like, what are the hashtags?

Matt

I'm not telling you that. Give it away for free. No, yeah, I've like something like, what being, being aware of, like, what the policy is, yeah, that doesn't cost you any money. Yeah, you can find out that for free there is, you know, you can find out what is going to be appropriate for you to wear there, instead of just guessing, yeah, and also that is that comes on. Think, I guess educating yourself, I think educating yourself doesn't cost anything. Actually, you know you there is so much resource material out there where you can learn about those spaces or those types of practices which aren't aren't going to cost you anything, and I think that's kind of the most accessible way to get, sort of get into free sex, yeah, but I so there's that. But I also think, like, again, touching on outright outfits, for example, being aware of what's acceptable, but also finding solutions to to get things that are going to be suitable, like and like, we joke about Vinted. Like, Vinted, like, there is, unfortunately, so much on, like, things like ASOS, like, Yeah and like, yeah. Like, this will down to personal taste. Like, yeah. But like, there is like accessibility is fetish wear is a lot, yeah, it's a lot easier than it used to be, yeah?

Adam

And it's that just because some of the style of it has become mainstream. So, like, ASOS is making it, you know, it's fetishy, but it's actually a mainstream thing, yeah?

Matt

Like, how much does a drop cost, yeah, by but, like, but they also, you know, depending on the type of space. If you're going to a space and you're like, I'm just going to buy a jock strap, but how can you elevate that to sort of make sure you're going in and respecting that space, and not like, Oh, this is just a last minute thought, right? I see because, yeah, just to go back from what said earlier, you're going into a space that has been built for people to explore sex and kink and fetish in a safe way. And like you, for me, it's like you have to be respectful of that, and you have to be aware of what you're going to go into and what you're going to see. And I, you know, I wouldn't want to go somewhere. Yeah, and it'd be a last minute decision and feel uncomfortable in that space, yeah, because I've not done the I've not had the foresight to sort of research it before, yeah. And, yeah. And

Adam

is that something that you deal with when you're working on the door at parties like torture garden all the time? Yes. So, like, how, how does that conversation,

Matt

um, the reason I think I'm put on the door is because I'm, like, I work with someone who's fantastic. And, like, we're very firm, but fair. And like, I think torture garden is a great is an institution and game for a long time. But it, you know, it is a space that feeds and fuels creativity. And for me, it's about the creative element. And I'm like, you don't have to come in a full cat suit, yeah, at all. You know, full leather cats or rubber cats eat, but like, there has to be an element of effort involved and and so when you do have people who, you know, who haven't made so much of effort, or have just like, oh, this will do. I'm like, No, that won't do. Like, you're coming into a space that has sort of like, been built over the years, yeah, and has been built to, you know, for people to really indulge in and encourage sexual liberation and freedom, yeah? And it's a disservice to other people in there, and it's disservice to the people who run the event, yeah. So yeah, I'm normally firm Buffett. I don't say that to them, but what I normally say is, this isn't gonna work. Do you have anything else? How can we be solutions, focused, right? Okay, I got a long, long standing relationship with simply pleasures and so which I used to work out, right? And I normally have to give them a heads up. If I'm working on the door, I'm like, right? I'm working on the door. You might be having a few people sent to you tonight. Someone's coming by something, yeah, but yeah, for me, like for me, it's the,

Matt

it's, it's about respecting. It's without respect. It's not, it's no, really, it's not necessarily amount about what someone's wearing, yeah, about the it's about the in what the the intent of which they've sort of come with. And is there, do you think that there's a is it difficult for the industry that we're talking about here to like, communicate this out to the world that, like, when we say we have a door policy, it's not because we only want people with a certain salary level to be coming, or we because we only want people with a specific kind of fetish to becoming it's this kind of more, kind of, like, smooshy thing about, like, respecting the space, it's kind of, like, harder to define, is it difficult to communicate that?

Matt

I don't think it is okay. I think I'm coming from like, a space where, like, for me, I maybe have sort of, maybe blinkers on a little bit, because I'm like, I just, I don't know, yeah, I understand how it's how people get it so wrong, yeah? Because I'm like, you have, yeah, we have things like access to, like visual aids of like, what that the inside of that club, or what fetish does look like? You have an opportunity to reach out and and ask people beforehand, and this can be with any sort of club and space. Yeah, you know, you have the opportunity to find things online. You have the opportunity to find things secondhand. You have the opportunity to like you like everything is kind of at your disposal. So you have the opportunity to do the work beforehand. So, yeah, I don't understand why, how people do get it so wrong. And it is a little bit like you often have times where you, like, you kind of see what they were aiming for, but it's just sort of missed the mark. And like, you know, and you sort of explain that to them, like, this is, I see what you do, I get it. But this is why it's not working. And this is what you need to do to kind of to sort of adhere to the rules. And like, the rules, you know, any space has their own kind of sort of rules. And like, they are in black and white that you can read them. And like, yeah, you know, it's the same for everyone. Yeah. You know, regardless, there's nothing worse than having it's normally like, I'm gonna say it's normally straight men that sort of do, sort of get wrong. But it's the worst is when you know guy turns up, he's like, and it's this, when you look at dominatrix and she's like, I dressed him. I was like, well, you should know fucking better. So yeah, and you're like, and you're like, right? I and then there's nothing worse as well than people trying to argue with you. And I'm like, I'm not, I'm not here to have an argument. Yeah? This is like, I'm just doing my job, which is, yeah, enforcing rules. Yeah, I'm not enforcing rules to be a dear, yeah, enforce. In them, yeah, to sort of make sure that everyone has read and understand, like, what the yeah is going on inside.

Adam

And you don't have an automatic right to come in here, like, if the people organising this and the people who are here are saying, like, no, because of whatever reason, I think

Matt

you like, it's a, it's a bit of a crossover, because I think you're right, I think everything should be, everything should be made accessible, yeah, to people, but you have to, those people have to, you have to meet them hard. You have to meet halfway. And that sounds maybe like a bit of a dickhead ish answer, but like, it's something that I've had to do, like, if I've, like, if I'm trying to think of an example outside of sex, like, if I want you to go to, I don't know a restaurant, yeah, we're going on a lovely day, but, you know, you can't come in wearing trainers, yeah? Like, that's our policy, yeah, I'm not gonna kick off and be like, oh, you know, that's so out of out of order. I borrow a pair of shoes, yeah, or do you want me like it's

Adam

because it's this, it's the it's that particular space. I remember going to the Sky Garden bar at the top of that's one of those big skyscrapers in London with a friend, because our friend was wanted to have her birthday there or something. And I turned up with a friend, and she, it was the summer, she was wearing flip flops, and they said, No, you can't come in. And I was like, really? I wasn't, like, angry or anything. I was just like, oh, can. I'm just curious. Like, what is the, what is the the vibe for why? What is that about? And, you know, and they said, it's about, you know, creating, I don't know. I don't remember what they said, foot pervert statement. Maybe it, maybe it was about foot perverts not being in Yeah, no, you just thought of that now. But anyway, like we called our friend, who was one of our friends, who was up there already, and she came down with like, and actually had a spare pair of shoes with her that my friend could wear. But there was a part of me that was a bit, I mean, I don't think I wanted to go to this place anyway. And I was a bit like, oh my god, this is so annoying. This is so stupid. But I do understand that like and I actually do think that there is a different there is a distinction between those kinds of spaces, like mainstream spaces, and I would ride them a bit more on it, compared to, like the sex spaces or the Fetish spaces, because I think what you're talking about, the point is that these are, these are more precious as spaces, and they're more heavily curated, and they're for people who really care about a particular, like, way of living, in a way of performing and looking and stuff like that. So I feel like the bar is higher for that,

Matt

yeah, I think as well, like, like, you just touched on like, the oh, you know, you they're feeling like, oh, maybe I'd want to go here anyway. Yeah, maybe not every space is made for every single person. That's right.

Adam

I mean, =the Sky Garden is not for me. I already knew that I was just turning up because it was my friend's birthday, but I think that's right. That is a good that's a good point. Yeah.

Matt

And I do think, like, I think there has to be an element of, I think we, I think we do live in a slight world where, like everyone, you know, everyone feels entitled to have access to things. And I'm like, with certain spaces, especially within the sex industry. I'm like, I'm like, things should be accessible, but doesn't mean you're, you're automatically entitled, and things have to bend around you, yeah, you have to kind of adapt to what you're going into, yeah. And like, and like, there are no, there are events like, I, you know, I, love to go to, you know, and, you know, I'm there's, there are various points of entry over which I can sort of get into those spaces. But there are also spaces I'm like, probably not for me, yeah. And I'm really glad that they exist because they cater to a different crowd, or they, you know, they go to a specific demographic. Um, but, and I'm, you know, best luck to them, I'll be their biggest supporter. But doesn't necessarily I have to, yeah, and I don't. And if I don't know why other people feel entitled, yeah? And if I like, and if I did want to get in that, I'd be like, Okay, I finally go to this space. How is that possible? And why do I want to go to that space? Yeah? You know, yeah.

Adam

I guess. The thing is, though, to go back to our theme of money only, the thing is that, like, it shouldn't be money. That is the thing that stops you. That's a kind of that's the crappy world that we live in, right? If you want to go to that space, that fetish space, and that's your fetish and you've, you know you've, you know you've, you've, maybe you've made an outfit, or bought an outfit or whatever. But then the cost of getting there is, like, too high. Then that. Is kind of shitty, right? And it's just the same, like with anything in society, like money, wealth inequality is is the thing that holds us back from living our from living our best lives, not even just our best lives, but just the lives that we want to live, you know? And that shouldn't be that just that shouldn't be the thing that stops us. And I think that it's just something in the conversation about sex that we need to mention money more for

Matt

sure, I think, as well like, outside of like events, yeah, there is the idea of being, having accessibility to to sex and kink through other sort of ways and likes, like apps, you know, and like, we spend a lot of time in archives. So we've spent a lot of time looking at personal ads, yeah. Like, yeah. And the idea of being people, being able to connect, actually, again, there's almost like, there's an element of money to that, because there is some sort of, there are some magazines where you pay by the pay by the word Yeah. And, you know, so you see some people with a bigger paragraph of, like, this is what I'm into. I'm seeking this. And then you have abbreviations of, yeah, certain kinks and fetishes, because it costs

Adam

money to write the whole world. So there is, like, money is always going to fact, yeah, and it is, it is x, regarding whether it be small or large, it's, it's just the way it is. And I guess, and I guess that's the thing about like, free sex, and a lot of the other episodes of this podcast is that, like, yeah, there are people who have, like, big ideas of, like, let's overthrow capitalism, and how that might work for for our sex lives. And it might, and that is interesting to talk about those big ideas, but it's also interesting to say, like, Well, okay, in lieu of something big like that, how do we ameliorate with specific things that we have now? Which is why I was asking you about door policies, that more the club could do, or ticket prices, what a club could do an event for that like within the structure that we have. I guess that's what I'm thinking about. I do want to talk about apps as well, though, actually, because that's another thing. I don't know whether it's just me and my experiences. Maybe this is anecdata, but, like, it just seems like that sex apps, or the dating apps, just don't work unless you pay and I know that those apps need money because they need because they're businesses, right, and they've got to pay people, but it just seems a bit disingenuous for them to have, like, you know, to have a free, open app, which anyone can ostensibly use if you've got a phone and stuff, but then actually, it doesn't. They're a bit janky, or they don't work, or you don't get matches, you don't get shown to people unless you pay you feels a bit gross.

Matt

I mean, I worked for a gay fetish app for good amount of years, and my my, essentially, my job was working in brand and event management, so I did the events, and then also did a lot of the content creation. And my gripe that I had, I think, with that that job essentially was the structure for the app was awful. It was outdated. But like by even when I first started working there, it was already outdated. And essentially what my job was was to almost create a bit of a distraction at how shit the actual app was, right, I think. But by doing that, essentially what I and my colleagues are doing were getting the community to give us, I guess, free content to sort of promote an app. And then there was, because you'd get, like, the photographs from the events, which then get, yeah, so events were great, a great way of kind of promoting, I guess, like fetish lifestyle. But also, you know, I went out and sourced like written content, like video content, and, like, there was, there was a roster of, like, writers that I worked with which did get paid, you know, to write articles for us. And like, you know, pretty good articles and fantastic writers, and that was a great way of, almost, like supporting, yeah, you know, people within that world. But there was also a massive push from, you know, my manager to get free content from people, which never really sat too well with me, because I was a bit like, well, we're getting people to pay and invest in this app, yeah, which doesn't work, yeah, is shit. But we're also then using the same people to make money off of them. So there was always this, like, it was always like, yeah, it was very much a bit of a smoke and mirrors thing where it's like, we're just gonna bombard people with imagery and content and sort of sell this idea. But actually, the physical app that you're using is shit, I mean, and there was just never any updates. Well, there was never any. There was a constant like, Oh, we're gonna, we're gonna roll out a new app. And the reason they couldn't do it was all the data they had was on an old system, yeah, so they didn't know how to transfer it over to any sort of new system. And so, like, yeah. Like, and. I think with other types of apps, you know, that was just one particular job, but I think with other apps, you're right. I think they there is, you're you're being paid. You have to pay to have access to connection. And when you're the whole idea of apps is like to foster better sexual connections with people, any type of connection people didn't necessarily have to be sex based, but like you are, you still have to pay a premium for that. Yeah,

Adam

and it does. And although, like you said, you're saying like, money is always present, like, like or not, it's always there, just like it was for people writing ads in like, you know, Gay News or something, when they were writing personal ads or in an old magazine, like you still had to pay to do that and paying for an app now is the same thing. There's always money there, but it just feels somehow that there is this thing between you and another person, which is some kind of barrier, or some kind of like, into intermediary, which is, like, in this case, the app, and then both of you on both sides are paying into that in order to, like, have a connection. And like, you might say, like, that's like, that's fine. That's what we do all the time. We pay for the things that we want. And in principle, you might say that's completely okay, but I just feel like when it comes to sex, it just feels somehow like it's like an extra, I don't know, not burden, but there's some kind of, like extra ickiness that I feel about it, because it should be like this most beautiful, natural thing between two people. Do you mean, like, love making? I do think

Matt

Like, I think like, things like media plays a huge part in this, because you're sold this idea of how you think maybe set or you're given an illusion of how you think sex, yeah, should be and and how easy and free and accessible it should be. And I'm like, but the reality is kind of often different, yeah, and like, but also, if you're pulling those, saw those sort of, sort if you're pulling on, pulling on several different sources, yeah, for your, you know, and you're creating an amalgamation of what you think your i Your ideal sex life looks like,

Adan

you know, it's just not really, it's not a reality. It's an fantasy, which I think is really true in visual culture these days, with like Instagram and people kind of curating a fantasy image of what sex could be. And also people just assuming there's always this great debt, like survey data, that people always assume that other people are having way more sex than than they're having for sure they're actually having more sex than they are actually have, you know, and that people assume that people are having more sex than they are actually having. And there's just this weird thing that I think apps in general, like, you know, you log on, we could open up Grindr right now in front of us, and we would like, find all these people in their neighbourhood, and we're just assuming that, because they're on Grindr, that they're all like hooking up immediately, and they, they might be,

Matt

but, but it's actually creates this, like, false idea, yeah. And I think, I mean, that's really interesting, because I think also that that that sort of feeds into your own deep inner psyche of being like, Oh, am I really on fucking in your insecure Yeah, if everyone else is hooking up, what like, why am I not? And that's why I'll pay 12 pound to boost myself on Grindr right now, because these people are and I'm not getting any attention. So I'll pay 12 pounds because I've got this, like deep in a sense of being left out and excluded, and it's sort of somehow, like,

Adam

in a way, like forces me to pay, yeah, and I know that Grindr isn't responsible for my insecurity, for sure, but also it's playing a role in it. And I'm not talking about me here, because I don't I'm not really using hiring, but like, I'm just talking about the person, the user, you know, like these apps, they do play a role in those things and and then there is this financial transaction, which I think is the thing that makes it a bit weird for me. Um, how much is it, like, 12 quid? Well, that's to, like, I think it's 12 quid to, like, do a or eight quid or something, to do, like, a boost now, which is, like, I don't know, because I don't do it, but like, where you get, like, seen by more people over the next two or three hours, or something. It get, you get promoted to more people pay me

Matt

15 quid. I'll fucking right now. No, my rates are much more. And

Adam

it says that obviously, then there's like, an annual subscription version, right, which also removes ads as well. You'd have to watch the ads. Lows like,

Matt

it's like, so I, I pay, I pay premier for YouTube, and, yeah, which is like, for me, like an investment, because I spend a lot of time watching stuff on YouTube, so I'm like, it's kind of like, it isn't a it's a cost that I, I'm willing to pay. But. Yeah, I never think I've ever paid,

Matt

I've never paid for premium on any sort of sex apps, but

Adam

the oh, I have a good story about this, actually, because in so Free Sex does not have enough listeners to earn any money from ad revenue yet, but it's hosted on a cast, and it's available for ads to go in. And so a cast does put ads into free sex. I'm not earning any revenue from that yet because this doesn't have enough, yes, but it happens. And so when I did the episode with Eva, obviously, like we spent the whole interview talking and using words like income and wealth, because we were talking about how we get everyone to have a universal basic income, because they can have the sex they want. And she messaged me after hearing the episode, and said that halfway through, she was served an ad for JP Morgan, which it's an amazing example of, like, maybe how dumb the technology is that it just thinks, ah, this is a podcast about, like, growing your wealth assets. And it's actually not. It was about, like, you know, this was a dominatrix who wants to give free money to people. Like, I don't think that's what JP Morgan had to mind. So I don't know what ad we're gonna get served in this episode.

Matt

Oh, I dread.

Adam

Well, is there anything else about this topic in this theme that you is, like burning in your mind, or any other final solutions?

Matt

I think it's about a meeting in the middle. I think, like it is on there. It is on sort of places like club, club events promoters, spaces for them to sort of be aware of accessibility in all its forms. And I think generally, most spaces do that. Yeah. And do you know a conscientious, conscientious, conscientious, do you think that fetish spaces specifically are more conscientious than other kinds of spaces. About that?

Matt

I'd love to see, yeah, but I don't go to any other kinds of spaces, so I don't think it's a fair judgement. When was the last time you were in all bar one? Is back, I guess you can get I haven't been to an all bar one for a while. Yeah. And again, I guess I'm probably, maybe not the best person to, sort of to give an answer on it, because, like, you know, all the space I go to, a place I work in, yeah, so yeah, or have worked in, so meeting in the middle. So there's, I think song was only modality on the point of the like clubs and the events and the promoters, and then on the other side thoughts the punters. But I also think, yeah,

Matt

for me, there's always been a drive of curiosity and understanding, kind

Matt

of the understanding the lay of the land and how to kind of access that. And I think there's a lot of people who maybe don't have that, and it's not in their nature to be like, Okay, this is potentially a barrier for me. How am I going to manoeuvre around this? I think there's maybe this expectation of like that should just serve me straight away, yeah. And I'm like, No, that's not, that's not how my world works. And I don't think it is the reality for a lot of people. And I think actually there is, there's actually an enjoyment. And I think there is a really good lesson to learn of navigating those that sort of that journey in those spaces, because you learn a lot about yourself, and also you learn about how to sort of like, pull on resources that you do have and that are available to and that's when you learn about sex and well

Adam

also that's the that's another way of looking at it, is that if you are interested in exploring this part of your body and your desire and whatever, then it's worthwhile to do the work like it's worth an investment, whether it's financial or whether it's you. Time to find you know, cheaper things or whatever, like, it's worth your time and effort. You owe it to yourself to do that is free, exactly. And like, this is sex, this is your body. It's worth the investment to do that. Yeah,

Matt

I completely agree. I I'm just gonna finish off by telling you one of my favourite things, which was, yeah, and I feel like I roll out this story at any opportunity, because it's so good, but there was, was doing, like, a load of research few years ago at the archive they had, they had a, it was like, almost like a Blue Peter style article about how to turn an old gramophone into into a wanking machine. Yes, did I have I told you this before, yeah, yeah. And I was like, see, that's something you could potentially. People need to bring that back.

Adam

People need to bring back how to turn your household object, your obsoleted household objects, into sex machines. Exactly. Okay. Well, thank you, Matt. This has been a great conversation and has made me think a lot. And, yeah, I really appreciate it.

Matt

Anytime, great ideas. Thanks for having me.

—

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode!

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX - the idea or this podcast!

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x

Listen to this episode on your podcast player of choice.

Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith.

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex?

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome.

Let’s go!

—

Can we find a way to take sex seriously?

My guest in this episode is Anastasiia Fedorova, a latex lover and author of a book called Second Skin: Inside the Worlds of Fetish, Kink and Deviant Desire. Anastasiia takes her subject so seriously that she’s built it into her life—and written a whole book about it.

I was fascinated to hear more about the research she’s done for the book, from fetishes for cars, monsters and medical gloves, as well as the classics such as feet, latex and leather. As a queer kinky person from Russia, Anastasiia also makes a good case for why it’s important to know the history and politics of sex topics.

You can pre-order the book now, including from Bookshop.org.

Adam

Anastasiia Fedorova, welcome to Free Sex.

Anastasiia

Thank you for having me.

Adam

Thank you for joining me. And congratulations on your amazing book, Second Skin. I'm going to read the full title, Second Skin: Inside the Worlds of Fetish, Kink and Deviant Desire. It's great.

Anastasiia

Thank you. Really thrilled.

Adam

So Anastasiia, you've just written a book all about the history of fetish and deviant desire, and that means I have to ask you, how can we build a world of free sex?

Anastasiia

I think to build a world of free sex, we need to cultivate empathy, curiosity and open mindedness, but I think most importantly, we need to take sex seriously. Because I think we often think of sex as a bit of an afterthought to our life or lifestyle. So it's something we do after work, in the evening, in these little bits of time we have left from our actual life. And I think it's great to reframe it as something much more creative and fulfilling, and something you actually can mindfully invest time into. And yeah, yeah, for that to become basically something which which is part of your life and identity in a much more meaningful way.

Adam

It's interesting how, in recent years, we've started to take mental health really seriously and well being and things like that. But sex hasn't really been a part of that conversation very much, but it's something that a lot of people have started to take seriously, and they've it hasn't necessarily changed how much time they put into work or into other things, but it's like, sort of seen as a practice that you do throughout your day and throughout your life, and you integrate it into other parts of your life, meant like having good mental health. And I wonder if that's a way of what can we do that with sex? Somehow?

Anastasiia

Yeah, I think it's definitely a process of discovery as opposed to a goal. It's not just something which you which you have, like good sex or bad sex. You have a lot of sex and no sex. It's more like a process of understanding what you even want from it, and yeah, what you want to discover through it and what it means for you. But also, I always say that we spend far too much time on work. If we worked last, we could have more time for other fun activities. And I think obviously the commodification of time and commodification and kind of seeking for productive age from everything, yeah, it's the most anti sex thing to me. Yeah,

Adam

so So work, and the way that our time is commodified into work is holding us back from having free sex, damn it.

Anastasiia

I think so. I think so. Yeah, surprisingly, anti capitalist view from someone who have written a book about fetishizing various commodities.

Adam

Well, let's go into that then, because you've made this your work to some degree and so and also, you know, it is a, yes, it's a book that's about it, that goes inside the worlds of fetish and kink and deviant desire, but it's also a history book. So I'm wondering, for I do want to talk to you about history shortly, but I just wonder, first of all, if you can say a bit more about why you wanted to write this book as a way of because, because you're taking fetish seriously and writing a book about it. So, um, so say more about that.

Anastasiia

So it's interesting, because I when I got into fetish and King, sort of seriously, which was around pandemic time, which is, I think, the case for many people who were stuck at home, bored and kind of existential, I asked myself the question of, do I actually want to make this my work? Do I really want to kind of take it away from the space of pure fun and exploration, for the sake of it, into something which I do as part of my creative practice? And I just couldn't. I just, I just had to. So. What the book is about. It's a combination of my personal exploration of this topics and of fetish King scene, of BDSM practice, of queer history and lover history, and it's also looking at these topics in the context of broader culture. So I'm a culture writer to begin with. So I spent probably around 10 years by now writing about fashion, art, photography, visual culture, internet. So I was interested in taking these topics, which are usually really isolated and marginalized, and put in each particular corner, and merge them with our different obsessions. So I talk in the book, of course, about lever and latex and various parts of BDSM play. But also talk about car culture and COVID and the ultimate, you know, symbol of masculinity and almost like vanilla fetish, I talk about fashion. I talk about the difference between fashion and fetish clothes. Yeah, and I talk about, quite like, surprising links of my own kind of becoming and my own life, and how it connected to various objects and practices.

Adam

Yes, and, and why do you think that all of the Why did you want to be so expansive with all of those different things? Because there are such different experiences. I know they can be all put together as fetish, but why did you want to go as broad as things like cars and feet and leather? These are all quite different things, and they're not all your own practice, either. So why go that broad?

Anastasiia

I think I was interested in our very intimate relationship with objects as an idea. So how we kind of give objects meaning, how we get obsessed with objects, how we desire objects with such power, and how we kind of look at objects as almost a source of this transformative energy which changes us as people. So that's what I was interested in, most of all, and that that's, in a way, what connects all of these very different practices. Because it could be about getting a latex dress or getting a pair of trainers and putting them on. You realize that you have changed and you have become something different. So yeah, that was, I think, the key to the very broad spectrum.

Adam

if we think about one of the things that you wrote about, I might pick cars, but you can pick something else if you want to talk about a different thing, I'm curious to know, like, what was your experience of taking it seriously enough that you could write a full chapter about that? And you know, there's so much work that goes into a single chapter. You know, I know how much work it takes. So that's a big commitment that you make to take it seriously. So what was that like to take one of your subjects and go into that level of depth?

Anastasiia

I think I I love talking about sex and the more niche the better. Okay, yeah, and I'm also part of the community. I'm very lucky by the fact that I'm part of the community in London and in other places, because quite a big part of it is online these days, which is also which also always takes this topic seriously. So some of it actually was already informed by some of the conversation I had previously. A lot of it was informed by my own passion and like historical research and academic research and just reading about that for quite a few years. So I think it actually because I didn't start researching these topics when I started writing the book, I started it like long before that, yeah, in the way, book is a culmination of a process which was much longer than the actual writing. Yeah,

Adam

yeah, it's true. And I think it's something that not a lot of people necessarily know that about books that, especially first non fiction books from writers where it's like it's based on a lot of work that they've done already, and a that's because the publisher can trust you that to do it, because they can see the work that you've done before, and you're like a new person to them, so they can trust you when they give you a contract to do a book and b It's because, well, you do know all of that stuff, so you've got to put it down there somewhere.

Anastasiia

But I think actually the most frustrating part of writing this was fact that the size of the book is quite limited. Yeah. I. You could write 40 chapters, yeah, every chapter could be three times five times longer, yeah, yeah. Like, such an infinite, seemingly infinite, like, amount of interesting stuff about every single thing, yeah, yeah. Definitely one of the most frustrating things about writing this was researching and then realizing that there's just not enough space to to kind of reflect the actual complexity and like different voices from the community, other people's different perspective, my perspective, is just like such a such a treasure trove of information. And

Adam

what about the fact that, like you said, you're primarily a writer of culture, especially visual culture. And this is a book which is just a book full of text. It's amazing text, and text is its own visual thing. But what were the challenges of writing about so many visual things, and the fact that sex itself, for most people, is a visual experience, and especially fetish, more than perhaps other types. What are the challenges there of converting that into text, which is more than just text, but you know what I mean?

Anastasiia

To be honest, I actually loved that aspect of the book, yeah? Because I think it allows for a more intimate relationship with the reader, because they have to imagine everything, okay, yeah. And it also allows you to step away from some of the stereotypes around kink and fetish, because obviously we have, and I write about the kind of classic stereotypical imagery we have of the dominatrix or the camp or of kind of trainer, fetishist or a lover daddy. It's such like powerful archetypes that you almost don't need images to convey them. But also it's very interesting to bring some plasticity into how they're represented, so every reader can kind of experience them on a bit of a more like embodied level, I guess, and personal level. And another thing I think, I think, for me, is that I write about sex, I think, or I try to write about sex from quite an embodied perspective. So it's about how it feels, and trying to strip away those stereotypes and existing language, and trying to find different language which might not be the most obvious one, or just finding, like, a fresh perspective. Yeah, that was, for me. I think the key, like, my key aim, basically, but there's going to be, actually, some images in the hardback.

Adam

Oh, there is. Okay, great. Oh, that's right, because I've read an early copy which doesn't yet have images in, because it's, it's the, it's the, like advanced copy. So that's good that they're going to put images in the proper book. Okay,

Anastasiia

it's going to be, I think, 15 images. So just, it's quite a small selection, and it's mostly images by artists who I'm interviewed in the book, or mentioned in the book, or members of the community, which, to me, it's, it's, it's not as much an illustration, but more just a way to give some space also to this really talented people and present their work. Yeah, it's kind of complete form.

Adam

I was interested in when you said that writing about some of this stuff creates a space where the reader has to imagine things like they have to sort of imagine the visuals, or maybe the other senses as well. And I'm wondering whether that links to your theme of taking sex seriously, where I guess I'm wondering, do you think that because our culture is so visual, and because we have Instagram and other visual things, that we've sexually we've become lazy?

Anastasiia

Oh, it's such an interesting question. So you you mean, we basically rely on visual stimulation so much that we no longer imagine it's so

Adam

easy to get visual stimulation sexually right, and also just for beauty, whether it's a beautiful picture of a dominatrix on Instagram, which is not sexually explicit quotes or porn, it's so easy to get this, are we losing our imaginations?

Anastasiia

I mean, I'm, yeah, that's a very interesting question.

Anastasiia

I'm quite a visual person myself so and I think one of the interesting thing, one of the things I was trying to explore in the book, is our relationship with technology and how it impacts how we experience sexuality. So I don't really think there is a way to return to this utopian state before we all had phones and social media, because realistically, erotic content has existed for such a long time like so there's always been a way of turning fantasies into images. And I don't think it's, there's anything wrong with that. But also I think, yeah, I don't think, I don't think we have to, kind of, I feel like, again, I think consuming images mindfully and consuming whatever roti content you're consuming mindfully is important. But then I'm also like, yeah, this porn, and it's fine. Sometimes you just need a bit of Yeah, a bit of a fix, which is straight forward, and that's also part of how we for, how we exist with our sexualities. Yeah,

Adam

yeah. It's just I was thinking about when you said using your imagination. And I was thinking about how it's so easy if you want to, if you want to masturbate, that to like, just find some porn that works in order to do that and that, like optimizing that moment for yourself, and like using that visual, that piece of visual culture, to do that, which can be really great, but like you said, it's it's about being mindful with that. And I wonder whether, because our lives are so busy otherwise with work or with like, a million other things, and it might be the last thing in the day that we do, that we get to do, but we know that we need to do it, and then that helps us to do that, and how we're losing something there. And if we were able to take it more seriously, as you said, then we might not be so reliant on the visual culture. I guess that point is specifically about porn, as opposed to like, like art or other forms of visual culture. But that's what I was thinking, yeah.

Anastasiia

But also I feel like sometimes when I talk to people who are quite a bit younger than me, who basically grew up with internet. I'm just fascinated by the precision which they know what they're into, which obviously for people who enter kink and fetish is quite a big thing. Yeah, and I personally came out really late. Well, it's never late. It's never it's never late time to come out. We all know that. But I was 29 and

Adam

oh my god, that's the same as me. We're a match.

Anastasiia

And then it took me another couple of years to kind of mindfully come out about my kink and interest and fetish interests. And when they meet people who just know precisely that one thing they into Yeah, which is super niche, and they just know it from like 16 or something, because the internet, in a way, I think, does that because they've helped to discover things Yeah, and the broad spectrum of things, so, and again, it's, it can be positive thing. It's nothing about the process is on the other positive, right? Yeah, always has its ups and downs, and it's always, it's always complicated, but, but, yeah, I feel like part of it doesn't necessarily relate to sex, but also to how we treat our media, right? Everything is supposed to be instant, everything is supposed to be free. Everything is supposed to be on your phone within a second as you want it. So that that, I think, to me, is more of a problem, rather than it relating specifically to sexuality, which is why, again, I was it was so good to talk to a lot of artists and filmmakers writers who explore these subjects, and also same as a lot of sex workers I talked to who also have a practice, which is like, very similar to artistic practice and crafting their identity and like their methods and their passions and their interests, and just talking to people who put this time into it, and who are quite often really passionate about quality and kind of cultural implications of what. Doing that's been a huge inspiration for me.

Adam

It's interesting hearing you talk about the sex workers and the artists there who are a big part of the book, and it's great to like hear their voices in the book. And it is making me think about how sex workers and artists and writers like you occupy a sort of space in the economy that we don't really take seriously. You know, it's seen as all of these things. Those things are seen as, like an indulgence or like nice work to have that's not real work, like going to work for a company and making making gadgets, or doing accounts, or, I don't know, you know, things like that, doing marketing campaigns, I don't know, like these are the kind of work. First of all, it's mostly like freelance work. It's working for yourself, and it's because it's driven by, sometimes it's driven by the person's passion, sometimes it's driven by other things. But I'm just thinking of those people that you're talking about there, and how, what, what do we what should we make of the fact that we don't really take much of any of that work seriously in society?

Anastasiia

I mean, I have to say it was a very broad range, from artists who have shows in major institutions to people who are definitely much more marginalized. So it's, I think it's, it's just kind of part of a bigger question about the value of creativity, yeah, and the value of human experience, yeah, which is obviously very hot topic these days with AI acceleration. So I think just thinking about sex is like, is this is as close to human experience as it gets, because to of course, you can write theory about it, but there is this separate, its own value in that experience which only you had, because It's just so personal and so embodied. And I think the question is like, does our society appreciate this? Is our society afraid of this? Our authority is afraid of this? Why does it get, you know, censored on multiple levels, yeah, quite often technologically enabled ways like you know, from not being able to get a bank account to your business to not being able to post about your work on social media, yeah, and I think we live in an Obviously unprecedented rise of conservatism as well, yeah, which targets sexuality and all kind of exploration around that, like gender exploration, yeah, just exploration of desires, just freedom in kind of navigating these things. And why is it such a huge point, like pain point for the authorities, yes, really makes you think about what makes this topic so threatening, and as a result, what can we actually gain from it as as free and free thinking people?

Adam

Well, yeah, I mean, I'm gonna ask that question right back to you actually Anastasiia, because I'm thinking about the authorities that you're talking about there in different countries and in different ways. Some of them are state actors, and some of them are private companies, like the ones that censor things on the internet. And they do seem to be taking plurality of sex, gender diversity, fetish and kink, they do seem to be taking all of these things very seriously. And I know I keep coming back to that theme, but they seem to be taking it seriously, and that's why they're outlawing it or censoring it. So why are they taking it so seriously? How does it threaten authorities so deeply that they need to do this...

Anastasiia

So I think one of the interesting things which I addressed in the book is my personal background, because I'm from Russia, where, as most of the listeners would know, i. Uh, oppression of LGBTQI plus people and queer people and trans people and also any of any kind of otherness is very normalized, and it has existed. I mean, it has intensified, like especially in last 15 years, because from growing up, it wasn't really the case as much, even though it was still pretty conservative. So I've always been interested in this type of otherness and why it's so threatening. And I think that something about sexual exploration and sexual freedom is very radical, because it like no one owns it apart from you, it's impossible to, well, we can argue about that, but I think that it's impossible to sell it back to you as a product. Yeah, it's it just makes you question, I think, a lot of other institutions which exists, and it just makes you question things pulled up. And I think any creativity is radical, but like, sexual creativity is especially thing, especially for it's a threat to conservative values of like nuclear family and other questions about bodily autonomy and reproductive health, yeah, which kind of traditionally just part of that whole discourse, but, yeah, I think it's just very, it's, to me, it's very connected to just radical self expression.

Adam

Yeah, it's so interesting to hear you say that and to connect it with what's going on in Russia, because you know that that's been most, most of your adult life, presumably, has has been those that those legal changes have been brought in in Russia over this time, and it's gotten worse and worse. And obviously you're not there now, but I really am grateful for you sharing that in the book. Actually those stories, and obviously it's, it's happening in other countries as well. And yeah, so thanks for sharing that, and I think it's good to I think you're I agree with you. I think it's right. I think you're correct that it's basically a radical challenge to the status quo and to the authorities, because it's something that happens like between individuals can't really be controlled in a way, yeah,

Anastasiia

yeah. It's an interesting it's been an interesting process because I haven't lived in Russia for 13 years now, so I've left quite a while ago, but it's, it has been like part of my work and with my connections from people there, but yeah, it's also, yeah, it's, it's, it's difficult to see this happening also pretty much all over the world. Yeah, really. And that reminds us about the fact that these freedoms you have to actively fight for them and try to keep them because they could be very easily taken away. Yeah, and same as I think people talk a lot about pleasure being an act of resistance, sex being an act of resistance. But I think also for a lot of us, the question these days is, but is it enough? Yeah, because I think it's that is another question, which I tried to talk about in the book, a little bit about the politics of lover history, politics of King, politics of fetish. And of course, like, I feel like you can practice it politically, but you also don't have to. You can just like a certain thing, and it's totally fine. It's not like you're gonna drawn, like everybody makes a choice of how they want to engage with something. Yeah, but yeah, for, for, I think, for the politically minded people who are aware of the community history, it's always a question. So I'm having radical sex, but is it actually enough to make, to make the world better, or like to to kind of, I guess, yeah, to to be part of the this community practices.

Adam

If you did want to visit Russia, would your writing make it difficult for you to enter or to be there when you were there?

Anastasiia

I mean, it's not going to be translated into Russian language, obviously, like the So, the the the so LGBTQ plus propaganda is, I think it's not a it's basically you just pay a fine, as opposed to going to jail. But you just literally never know this day it's really like, yeah, it is so like, I haven't been for quite a while, and I do wouldn't go, but I'm not sure. I've also done so much other work, like before, I've done LGBT work. I've done, like, various fundraising, which would very be legal, very much that. So I'm, in a way, I'm kind of more worried about that in the book, because I feel like the book is pretty niche as it goes. But, yeah, they don't like any, any type of pervert there. Yeah,

Adam

you've mentioned history a little bit there, when you were talking about politics and the history of the, I guess, political element of certain fetish cultures, like the leather community. Why is it important? Do you think to write about the history of fetishes and for people to know about that?

Anastasiia

I grew up without any access to queer history or like kink fetish history, and I think that's made me very passionate about it, because, I think because I didn't see any representation, or didn't know about any history. It was really hard for me to recognize myself or feel like I exist, yeah, as a person I want to be, or as a person I am. Because I think for a lot of people who came out, like slightly later in life, I think it's quite common that you have a very kind of nice looking life, which is supposed to be absolutely 100% fulfilling, but then somehow you don't really feel that way. And that was definitely my case. So I think kink and queer history, for me, is important as something which helps you to recognize yourself and to validate your existence, your existence as a as a authentic version of yourself. Yeah. But also so one of my favorite places in London, in the world, and like a place which was very, very instrumental in writing this book, is the UK fetish archive at the Bishopsgate Institute in London, yeah, which I spend a lot of time in, and which collects pretty much all kinds of materials from people who, I guess, feel close to fetish kink history. So it ranges from leather jackets to sex toys to books to films to everything. And they also archive materials from people who are on the scene right now, yeah, and also from pretty much anyone. You don't even have to be on the scene. You just have to be want to preserve that part of your life, which I find fascinating. And I remember speaking to Stef Dickers who works at the archive and who I'm also really, really grateful for helping me with my research. And I asked him, Why does he think it's important to archive these things? And he said that it's also a great antidote to censorship and oppression, because you have the receipts. It's not exactly, obviously, it's not the exact words, how he phrased it, but you basically have the receipts that these things have existed for a long time. Yeah. So there's nothing new, there's nothing shameful, there's nothing unnatural about it, yeah, so as much as we might not want to normalize these practices. It's just also very heartwarming to see that these things have existed for a long time.

Adam

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I do find it really kind of like jarring in a way, when I'm so interested in the. History of these things. And although I think a person doesn't have to be interested, and they can just enjoy their pleasure, they can just enjoy their fetish, I'm always still really surprised that people are not interested at the same level that you are, or that I am in the history of it. And so it's kind of a weird paradox where I'm like, Absolutely, you be you just enjoy it. But how are you not obsessed with the history at the same time? What do you think about that

Anastasiia

you went quite deep, deep on the history in your book about the food fighters, right?

Adam

Yes, yeah. I mean, I could have gone deeper. Is, it is a short book, but like, like you said, I could have written another 40 chapters.

Anastasiia

Interesting. Why did you decide to Yeah, I'm just really interested how so for you is, like, is history the main thing which interests you, or is the practice currently?

Adam

Oh, it's both. I think it's both equal. I think it's, well, we don't have to go too much into my psychology. I mean, I'm not ashamed, I'm not scared of it, but it's, you know, it's, it's your interview. But I think it's because a big part of my understanding of my body and my desire comes from comes via an intellectual exercise, which can become kind of like solidified in like learning about the history, just as much as It could be about learning about the science of desire or the technicality of making a gimp suit or something like that. So for me, it's like it kind of my I absolutely can just enjoy the pleasure, but I think that just because of various things to do with my history and my psychology, that it often comes via, like the brain rather than the body. And I think that's probably why I'm so interested in the history. Yeah, I see,

Anastasiia

I think it would differ for me depending on different topics. So history is obviously a big part of it. When it comes to level history, I feel like for a queer level person, it's almost an act of the work you should be doing to preserve this history, okay, yeah, because a lot of this history has been forgotten, yeah, a lot of this history is not in the mainstream. It is a group of people which has like, which has endured, like, oppression, marginalization, and obviously so many people have been lost, like the AIDS epidemic, and there's a big intersection there. So I think that, to me, was almost there was not really a question whether I should engage with it, because it just feels like something which connects you to the community in a different way. Because we all struggle. I think when it comes to queer people, especially in big cities, we struggle about connection. I think quite a lot, because a lot of the queer culture is about bars or clubs, which is or sex. It's it which at the heart of kind of recreational activities, I guess. Yeah, so doing something community minded is something which really connects us to each other and to the history, to people, to people of previous generations. Yeah. And I think that's really important personally for my sense of self as a queer person, but also I never really want to separate to make history, just something which is in your mind and something very academic. Because to me, history is also an embodied pleasure. Yeah, just as much. Because I think just reading a flyer about the sex party in 1979 it gives you just an incredible rush of just joy and yeah, just realizing that people were there, and they had a great time. They had really feel for sex, and they felt proud about it. It's just to me, it just fills me with Yeah, joy and pride and yeah. This is what I love doing, yeah. But when we go into other topics, I think it's also just genuine curiosity and connecting. Things, yeah, I think it's any person. I think especially like in the non fiction genre, I feel a lot of the things are often driven by curiosity, yeah, and trying to connect the dots through space and time as well. Yeah,

Adam

yeah. I think that's also a really good way of, sort of saying to people like me that there isn't really firm distinctions between, like, brain and body. You know, despite what I said earlier, that like, these things are all connected, which I do agree with. I do agree with that, and it's, it's just interesting to think about the different levels of interest that we all have for different aspects of this, and it's just part of the richness of it, you know, and that there are people have different experiences of it all. Well, I want to ask you, as we come towards the end of our time together, about if we take fetish and sex more seriously, and if that means that there's more and more people doing it, and it's more and more open, and we have sex clubs on every corner like we have pubs on every corner, then what are the pros and cons of that? Like, what do we gain and what do we lose? Or maybe it's all gain and no, nothing is lost.

Anastasiia

Oh, dear, the so is the sex club on every corner, or a kink club on every corner. Yeah, it's a big difference, though. Yes,

Adam

that's true. Okay, kink, well, you choose which one do you want to add. So yeah,

Anastasiia

I feel like fetish and kink are quite different as a practice to I think the broad idea of sex, yeah, because part of the joy of writing about it was the fact that it will always be not for everyone, yeah, just because of the nature of it. And also, I think it helps us to like bend and change and question the definition of sex itself, because a lot of it is really not about genitals at all. A lot of it is in your mind. A lot of it is a fantasy. A lot of it involves other parts of the body, or just objects and no bodies at all. A lot of it is about your personal transformation into something different, which is, like, non human, yeah, so it's, so it's, I think it's different to, I think it's quite different to the idea people often have about kink and fetish as this space of, like, ultimate hedonism, where you just, like, let go of all the, all the, you know, the guardrails of your mind and just indulge in filth, right? While, actually, I think it's a very, quite often for people, it's a very specific, very curated joy which is just for them, and which is quite often very private, very quiet, very nerdy, yeah. So I think that's that would be, like my distinction in relation to this question. So when I speak about kink being more mainstream, I don't necessarily speak about like ultimate, you know, hedonism, openness and nudity everywhere, yeah? Because, in a way, it's different, yeah, but we do have quite a lot of kink parties in London.

Adam

We do. It's a bit of a boom time. Yeah, right now, yeah,

Anastasiia

yeah, absolutely. So in the way we are living through an interesting an interesting time. In that regards, where you do have a choice of a lot of places to go to, yeah, on every single weekend. Yeah, but I think what remains, sadly as as it becomes more visible and just more present, is that a lot of the stigma still stays the same. And that, I think, is a very interesting question when we talk about things becoming more mainstream. Because for me, like I don't really mind as much things being more visible in the mainstream, just as long as it also goes with things becoming a bit less stigmatized and marginalized. Because I think that was the case. I write about Madonna's sex book from 1990 and how that attracted lots of attention to the lava scene at the time, because she cast like real leather dykes and people from the scene in to be in the book. And a lot of people really didn't welcome that attention, because they just. Realize that they are in this spotlight, which doesn't last for very long, but then, as a result, they just have to have to face more issues, more problems with authorities, with people who think this is not right. So I think if we have a sex club on every corner, and because of that, it becomes less marginalized, I'd be down for sure.

Adam

Okay, so it's a conditional popularization, essentially,

Anastasiia

yeah, I feel like it's just important that also to know that there's people with various degrees of vulnerability who are in these spaces. And also, for all spaces, this is like literally their only home to go back to while and it's, this is their family. This is their community. It like community is a cheesy word these days, which doesn't really mean anything, but I think for a lot of people, this is where they come back to and this is their lives. Yeah, while you also have people who enjoy it recreationally, and they come and go. And so I think it's just being mindful of these people for whom this is incredibly important, and this is where they find safety. And this this preserving that I think would be really important, and of course, educating people more about safety of these practices and creating like community culture of mutual care, because this is what again exists in. This has existed in BDSM and kink spaces forever, like that, culture of consent, right, being mindful about people's boundaries. Good communication. So I feel like, again, as long as people are educated about these things, and as long as we work hard on educating them about it, rather than just appropriating esthetic and the joy of fucking each other in the public space, I think then we could do that. Great.

Adam

Okay, well, Anastasiia, thank you so much. This has been a really thoughtful conversation. I've really enjoyed it, and it's made me think a lot, which is one of my favourite things to do. So thank you.

—

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode!

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX - the idea or this podcast!

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x

Listen to this episode on your podcast player of choice.

Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith.

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex?

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome.

Let’s go!

What if sexuality wasn’t a spectrum?

My guest in this episode is Sari Van Anders, who is a very multi-faceted scientist and thinker. Drawing on her experience in behavioural science and neuroscience, plus gender and queer thinking, Sari and her team have built an incredibly refreshing concept for how we can think of ourselves as sexual beings.

We tend to think of our gender and sex as one thing, and that we are attracted to others based on their gender and sex (eg, I’m a man who fancies men so I’m gay). But it’s much more complicated than that! Which is why I just say I’m ‘queer’! Sexual Configurations Theory (SCT), which is Sari’s idea, includes other factors like how many partners you fancy, how body parts are distinct from gender identities, and the relative strength of different kinks in making up our desire.

I’d love to know what you think of SCT — listen to Sari and let me know ;)

Adam

Sari van Anders, welcome to Free Sex.

Sari

Well, thank you for having me.

Adam

Thank you so much. I've been I've been really wanting to speak to you for a long time because you have such an interesting and rich idea about sex and how we conceive of ourselves as sexual beings, I guess, let's say so, what is your answer when I ask you that big question of, how can we build a world where people people can have the sex they want?

Sari

Yeah, yeah, I feel like we're so. Many of us are hoping that people can have the sex they want and not the sex they don't want. But of course, that requires us to figure out, what do we want, what do people want? And to do that, people use knowledge frameworks. And philosophers of science, feminist philosophers and others, talk about a concept called epistemic justice or hermeneutical injustice, which are fancy words for like, social justice, around what we know and what we don't know. And so for me, it's really important, if we want the sex we want and not the sex we don't want, to have just theories and knowledge, and that's where my work comes in, because I have something called Sexual configurations theory that helps us sort of make sense of who we are as gender, sex and sexual beings and individuals in cultural context.

Adam

Okay? So it's about no knowing who you are, knowing what you want, in order to be able to then have the sex that you want. And don't we have all the things that we need for that, because we have words like straight and gay, bisexual and male and female and non binary, and all these words don't, don't don't these cover everything, or tell me what these things are actually. Let's, let's do that there. What do we have as knowledge of of these things?

Sari

Yeah. So I think what's so important is that we have all sorts of terms and labels that are available to us, and there's increasing terms and labels every time we ask participants what their sexual identity is, or gender identity, we get new terms, which is so exciting and wonderful. So people increasingly realise there's more out there than, you know, just women or man or just straight or gay or bisexual, not that those terms aren't great and those existences are wonderful for the people they fit. So we have these knowledge frameworks out there that make sense of gender, sex and sexuality, but often in what we might think of as kind of binary ways. So there's this assumption even for sexuality, for example, straight or gay, it references people's own gender sex and then the gender sex of people that they're attracted to or being sexual with. So there's kind of this binary assumption built into those. And obviously lots of straight, queer, gay, lesbian, bisexual people challenge those binary assumptions. Or the their their sexualities aren't built with that. But the terms themselves can kind of assume that you have a binary gender sex, or the people you're attracted to or being sexual with have a binary gender sex. So I think it's really important that knowledge frameworks reflect reality, which is that lots of people don't have binary gender sexes, or their partners don't, or their interests aren't. So the existing frameworks have that as a limitation. They also tend to focus a lot on bodies, so they tend to assume that, you know, sexuality is kind of about, let's say, genitals or bodies, but for so many people, sexuality is about so much more than genitals or bodies. So first off, it's not to say genitals and bodies aren't great, because they are for lots of people, and part of sexuality for so many people, part of many people's sexual attractions and fantasies and behaviours. So it's not to say that that doesn't matter. More. The issue is, is that, for many people, there's so much more going on, and not more in a sense of, like better, just more, as in a sense of, you know, there's a pile of things here, and genitals and bodies are just one of them.

Adam

Yeah, different factors at play, exactly.

Sari

So we want frameworks that address that and take all that into account. So there's room for genitals and bodies, but also room for like, appearance, comportment, attitude, all sorts of things that people can be attracted to or enjoy. I

Adam

just wonder if we can stay with what we have so far and thinking about the like, the binary things that you mentioned, like, of how people conceive of themselves. I am this and I like this other thing. Where does that like, historically, where is that idea coming from, and what kind of research has that emerged from? And then also culturally, where I did, where is that idea come from?

Sari

Yeah, that's such a great question. So much of the research that helps us understand that this is a time limited thing, or a thing that's sort of developed in time and place, comes from queer theorists who helped us understand that our understandings of what it means to be gay, for example, or even heterosexual are specific to certain times and places. So for example, it used to be that you know what? Kind of sex you liked, or what kind of gender sex you were attracted to, didn't really define who you were. It was just something you did. It was something you liked, and you were either married to a woman or a man or not, and that's really what was more important. There's all sorts of places too, where whether you're gay, for example, could depend on whether you identify as the term gay, whether you have sex, whether you're a man who has sex with other men, whether you're cisgender man who has sex with other cisgender men, whether you engage in receptive penetrative sex, whether you engage in penetrative, insertive penetrative sex, and so on. So really, what counts as gay is really different over time and place. And queer theorists helped make clear that. That helps us understand that things we think of as like natural and fixed to people's bodies and existences is actually quite situated meaning, like specific to time and place and culture. Second of what you're asking, yeah,

Adam

it does. I'm just thinking of how different eras have reflected this differently. Like, you know, we didn't have queer theory in the 19th century. We didn't have people, academics in universities doing thinking about queer sexualities. I mean, the worst, the starts of people that were thinking about sex and sexualities in a sort of kind of theorising way, right? But it's interesting to think about the different time periods. And I'm thinking about Victorian England because I'm sitting here in in London, and the Victorians are still quite present, yeah. So it's interesting to think about the different time periods,

Sari

yeah, for sure. And you know, there were just all sorts of different patterns and understandings. There's sort of medical there was like a criminal versus non criminal, then sort of insane versus sane pathology, pathological or unhealthy versus healthy. So there's all these different framings that we see attached to sexual, sexualities and identities over time,

Adam

and then, I guess, the in the second half of the 20th century, in places like North America, in the UK and other kind of like Western European countries, at least, the idea of an identity, the idea of, Like, a core sexual sexual identity actually was very successful and powerful in obtaining legal rights and legal recognition. You know, it was the idea of saying, Well, I am this. Therefore, if you if the law disrespects me, if the law blocks me from being who I am, then the law is an ass and it's unfair, and we have to change the law. And you know, gradually, there's been these legal legal, I guess, like freedoms and liberations that have been won on that argument. Do you think that the success of that as a legal and social reform strategy, the success of the identity based thing, is maybe one of the reasons why we're we're still so heavily influenced and connotated by that, by having an identity before we get on to the more broader, mixed, like multi dimensional figure configurations theory that you're talking about.

Sari

Oh, it's so interesting to think about. And I have a new postdoc who's coming to my lab, who was visiting before, who works a bit on questions like this, named John Santos. And I guess the thing I'll say is that how identities came to be sort of useful and impactful for legal strategies is partly through some identities being seen as sort of natural, in the sense of, if this is a part of you, it shouldn't be discriminated against. But of course, there's all sorts of things that are natural to people that are discriminated against. And in the 20th century, we can see all sorts of examples where things that were thought to be natural to people. I'm Jewish, so being Jewish, being gay, having a disability, being disabled, were seen as natural and not aspects of not grounds for fighting for rights. So I think that these strategies have been multifold, and sometimes they're useful in places and sometimes not, sometimes natural and inherent is seen as a grounds for erasure and genocide, and sometimes it's seen as a grounds for rights. And I think probably there's a really interesting book by Paisley Cora called Sex is a sex does for about trans rights and the trans rights movement. And he talks really brilliantly about the way the feminist movement and the idea that women should have rights because, in some ways, women should have rights because they're not so different from men. So it actually moved away from a naturalness identity argument that that ended up being a grounds for so many other rights based movements that had to do with gender, sex and or sexuality. Um. Um, because people felt like, Okay, well, if, if women aren't so different from men, and if women actually deserve rights and might actually be human, then um, all these other things that we were hinging on, you know, who, who you should marry and what the roles are could kind of disintegrate to in a really great way that opened up space for people. So I see that as being quite effective.

Adam

Yeah, interesting. Okay, so let's move on to you the idea that you've been working on now for, for quite a few years. You mentioned it at the top, sexual configurations theory, and you've also sort of, we're gonna, we're kind of positioning it in as a sort of, not a riposte, but like a development, a further, a furthering, maybe it's a riposte. You tell me to the these other older ideas of of how we conceive of ourselves sexually. So I wonder if the listeners, you can just explain what what the theory is, and then we'll break it down, because it's got lots of different parts to it, and that's what I really want to get into with you.

Sari

yeah. And so I guess some of the other elements that make it different from existing or sort of older theories, is also we tend to assume, in the way you spoke about, that someone's sexuality or gender is a thing about them that's always the same, that doesn't ever show any fluidity. And so I know that that's not empirical reality, and I wanted to develop a theory that had room for people to understand their shifts in sexuality or gender. Now, I do want to be clear for your listeners that it's not the case that other people can shift a person's sexuality or gender. So there's all sorts of really harmful, so called reparative therapies that are really harmful and have been shown actually, empirically, to be very damaging and not work. Yeah, so it's not the case that someone else can shift, but as we all, an example I often use is we all age but no one can age you, except, you know, sometimes I think maybe my kids are family, but yeah, no one can age you So, but we still show changes. So I just wanted to put that up. Yeah, so I wanted a theory that had room for that fluidity and flux. That's one element. And another element I want to talk about relates also to what you were talking about with identity. Because as a culture, I don't know if we're a monolithic Western Anglo culture or not, but certainly there's lots of differences, but we do tend to be kind of very identitarian, very focused on identities. And I talk about an SCT, and other people have talked about this as well. SCT being sexual configurations theory, this idea that we actually need to be thinking about identity, but also something I call status, and also something everyone has heard of called orientation, and that's because identity is that label, that term, maybe your politics, the communities where you feel you belong and where others accept you, but orientation is maybe what you're drawn to, what feels right, what resonates, and status is what you're doing. And we all know that identity, status and orientation can be branched, but our theories often kind of put them into one bunch, like if you're gay, that means you're a man who's attracted to men, who has sex with men, and is aroused by men. But we know that lots of gay men are also sometimes attracted to women or non binary people. And it's really important, I think that our theories reflect this identity, status and orientation as different, but obviously related and obviously often coincident phenomenon. So SCT makes room for people to talk about their identity, their status and their orientation in branched ways. And I even use that language branched and coincident on purpose, because people often talk about, like aligned, as if there's a right way to line up those things. And I do think if you know, if you are attracted to women and you're a woman, but you feel like you can't act on it because of prejudice, that's like a misalignment in in our culture, that's yeah, phobia, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's not okay. That's not just branchedness, but often people do have branchedness from their labels, because labels are wonderful. They help people find community, and they're also limiting in some ways, because they have specific meanings and they they can't be quite as capacious as all of us like for example, let's say you're attracted to masculine people, regardless of gender, sex, there's not a real good label for for that that everyone would know and easily access. Yeah. So our labels are kind of limited. So that's a few things I've talked about. I can talk about a lot more, but I want to pause here. Yeah,

Adam

no, I think it's, it's really good, and you've opened up the way to start to see it as lots of intersecting parts, and it's hard to think of them. I think it's hard to think of them in our minds as like because we're used to like a label which is like a thing that you are, and as you said, it's binary. Or we're even more used to a spectrum now you know, which is a long line, which is still about like who you are. And and who you're attracted to, and that that might be some that person might be somewhere else on that spectrum, but you're adding these extra layers to it, and I don't know whether to conceive of them in my mind as as layers or as a matrix or just a big pile of clothes in the middle of the floor. I'm not quite sure. So can you say a bit more about how you try to conceptualise this, to help people to understand these different facets.

Sari

Yeah, so and so we have these drawings. So one of the neat things about writing SCT or sexual configurations theory was, as I was doing it, I was coming up with a visualisation. Because, as you point out, you know, it's one thing to have all these ideas, but where does that take us? Is this? Is this a pile of laundry? I love that. Yeah. Is this a list? Is this a spectrum? Is it a line you fall along?

Adam

I mean, I'm sorry to just probably I'm the maybe, maybe I'm the first person to just describe it. It's like a big pile of clothes on the floor. Sorry about that. No,

Sari

I love it. And so what we have is actually what I've developed is something people call it. Have various terms for them. Some people call them tornados, funnels. Gosh, what else? Maybe those are the two main ones. And so what they look like is kind of like a funnel. And people can actually, what's really cool, I think about SCT is, I mean, people can listen to me talk about it, they can read about it, but they also can just look at the picture and figure out where they go on it. And it doesn't have to be one spot. So it's what it looks like, is a bit of like a circle on top and then kind of a funnel, or like a rounded pyramid on the bottom. And so when it comes to what I call gender sex, sexuality, like the people you're attracted to or interested in or having sex with, you can mark down. Are they men? Are they women? Are they people of both sexes? Are they people of many gender sexes? Are they people who challenge gender sex? Does gender sex not matter at all? So there's room to put all of that. And then what I also have added is what we call a strength scale. How strong is that location? So for example, people tend to assume, if you're straight, like you're super straight, that's like, a really big part of who you are. It really defines your sexuality. But for lots of people, like, yeah, it matters, but it's not that big of a deal. And we've empirically, we've shown in our research that actually there's a lot of variation along that strength scale for people of various gender, sex, sexualities. So people can locate themselves. And then, you know, I talked about that issue of fluidity, and most theories have a sort of static assumption, like, what are you? What is your identity? And with us on SCT, people can locate their orientation andor status, and they can locate it in multiple places. So they can have, you know, a person can be attracted to men and femme women. They can be attracted to non binary people and also normative guys, and they can mark multiple places, and they can mark multiple places over time. So you can see, you know, I started here, and then I found myself attracted to this and this and these people and mark that. So there can be dynamism in how people mark it. And it's really cool to see the diagrams. People do really interesting things and write really interesting comments about

Adam

it. Can you explain this term that you're using to those who haven't heard of it before, gender, sex,

Sari

yeah, and, and I was just thinking about that, how I was like, Oh, I hope we're gonna get into that.

Adam

Okay, hit me.

Sari

Because, you know, people sometimes know me from my hormone work, not that your listeners are gonna know me in from in any case. But you know, for the academic people who know me, they sometimes know me from the sexuality work, and sometimes from another line of research I do, which is hormones. My PhD is actually in behavioural neuroscience, yeah, and I got really interested in how we understand the difference between gender and sex, not the sexuality kind of sex, but the sex kind that's more linked to gender. And it becomes really clear that all the things we think of as being sex only, like that's biological only actually are often influenced by gender. So for example, I studied testosterone, and it turns out gendered experiences actually can shape testosterone. Many of the assumptions people have about testosterone are shaped by gender, and people of all gender sexes have testosterone. So I started using gender sex in part because we're all really these, like a fancy feminist science where it might be assemblages. We're all these mixes of gender and sex. And actually, for many of us, when we look at someone, we might sort of automatically categorise them as a gender sex. Maybe that's decreasingly so, but I think it's still pretty predominant and prevalent, and we do so on a basis of things like how long their hair is, which is not sex. That's pretty gender because it's, you know, you can cut your hair. It has nothing to do with your biology. We also might use facial hair, which has some relations to things many of us think of as tied to sex, like testosterone. I. On average, women have less facial hair, but not none, but less facial hair than men. We might use things like body shape, whether they're sort of lumps under a shirt or not, all sorts of things, style of clothes, fingernail length, eyelashes, you know, things that have to do with gender sex, but also really where the two come together. So I think of it as two overlapping circles, one for gender, one for sex, and where those circles overlap is gender sex, and that's actually where we all are and where a lot of our own gender sexes are, how we understand ourselves, and where our gender sex sexualities are, how we understand our sexual attractions or behaviours with other people. So that's the cool thing about SCT, is you can actually separately mark your sexuality, like are in relation to sex, gender and gender, sex. Are you attracted to people on the basis of identity? And if so, what are you attracted to people on the basis of bodies? And if so, what aspects? Yeah, is it more about gender, like how people move through the world and so on? Yeah? So, yeah, yeah.

Adam

It's so it's, it's so interesting, and it's interesting to see this having unfolded over recent years in the queer space in terms of how different people and identify their and describe, actually, their sexual behaviour. So for example, in like this, the a world I'm in of gay and queer men. Let's say the conversation of like, do I fancy, is it possible that I can fancy trans men that don't have a penis, for example? And you know, for some people, that's like, a really touchy subject. And for some people, it's like, politically, absolutely, yes, you're a gay man. That's a gay man, and yes, or that's a man, and that's and yes, you can. And then some people are like, ah, but how do I talk about this? Because it's, it's about my attraction to a body part, you know or not, and those kinds of things. And it's interesting to see how we're very ill equipped to actually handle that conversation and the complexities of what we're feeling and what we're desiring there. So I think that a phrase like gender, sex and these two overlapping circles that you're talking about in combination with the funnel tornado of sexual configurations theory is a pretty good start to us, equipping us to having that conversation in a better way and a more humane way as well.

Sari

Yeah, thank you. And I think, you know, if we're thinking about gay men, for example, gay and queer men, you know, many gay and queer men are realising they are totally into trans men, and many aren't right. And so I think, and then, and these, these discussions are important because, you know, trans men are so marginalised, and so it's important for us to keep that in mind at the same time, for some people, genitals are a real big part of their sexuality. You know, some people are just real fans of penises, and that's just going to be a part of it. And some people are more real fans of penetration, and you don't need a penis for penetration. And for some people, you don't need a penis to be flesh, either it could be latex or something else. And so I think that's one of the neat things about SCT, is that it allows us to sort of disaggregate this. We don't assume that men have to be cisgender. We don't assume that men have to be male. We don't assume that male has to mean a flesh penis. But people are able to sort of think it through. And what we find when people are doing SCT is they start to think these things through. They kind of never had, like, a prompt. So maybe they've had these political experiences, or they've had sex partners, but they've never actually been able to sit down and think, like, actually, what do I want? So coming back to your starting question, like, what is the sex I want? And first of all, do I want sex? And if so, because it's such a normativity that you're supposed to want sex, although asexual and a romantic, people have done great work helping the rest of us understand. But also, you know, what is it about these sex partners that attract me? Because, for example, many people are attracted to other people before they see their genitals. Like it can't only be genitals or all be genitals, although there are, for some people, it's like, really genitals are where it's at. And so making room for different kinds of sexuality, I think, is such an important project, empirically, like we need to be accurate, empirical and just I always say that about the feminist and queer science we do and all the science we do, it needs to map onto people's actual experiences. It needs to provide meaning for everyone, and it needs to do so in ways that don't like continue to empower already majoritized people, like people in majorities, people who are in dominant groups, and continue to marginalise people who are in minoritized groups. We need it to be just, and that's going to be a part of the neat thing is that's a part of making it more empirical and accurate, too. Because when we ignore people on the margins. We're not doing empirical work, we're not doing accurate work.

Adam

But what about those people? And I have to, I have to ask this, obviously, you know, this is when a question starts like, what about, you know, what about those people who say, Okay, I I see that you're presenting a very complicated. Picture of human biology and human nature here. But come on, a minute. Isn't there a common sense thing that everybody knows that there are men and women and based and that's it. So go back to your hormonal research and your gender sex things, and this is like a real live conversation at the minute and so. And they also those people with that, with that position, that supposed common sense position, that there are men and women, and that's it. They have a huge strength to their argument, which is that it's very simple and yours is not so. What do you say to them? And how can you, you know, how can you somehow, not necessarily simplify your idea, but somehow, how do you, how do you respond to it? Bear in mind that it's a complicated picture that you're you're kind of fighting on two fronts, the complexity of the argument and the very claim itself, the fact, your fact versus their fact.

Sari

Yeah. I mean, sometimes I say to people who say there's no non binary people, or that there's only two sexes and genders, like, have you been outside your house? Have you walked outside? Have you seen people? First of all, and there's some very simple examples that I think are useful to this. One is, we know there's not two sexes, because if you define sex, for example, by having one sex has breasts, one sex doesn't. One sex has this. One sex doesn't. It's like, actually, pre pubertally girls don't have breasts. So we know already there's sort of different versions or flavours of sex, even in people who are binary and cisgender. We also, if you were to define by Okay, reproductive capabilities. We know, for example, post menopausal cisgender women are not getting pregnant, they're not ovulating, things like that. So again, we're able to take very simple everyday examples that like, Okay, well, at least we need a few sexes to account for these different life stages in a way. They're not the same bodies, they're not the same capabilities, they're not the same functions, and they look different, right? Hope, like Hopefully, most people are not attracted to children. They're attracted to post people at all people, unless they're children themselves. And then, you know it's more appropriate to be attracted to children for the children. But so we know already that our sexuality takes these things into account. So that's important. My research on testosterone has been really instructive as well, because I look at social modulation of testosterone and how it responds to our social situations, including gender. So our gendered experience actually changed testosterone, and also so many of the things that people have attributed to testosterone throughout decades and decades haven't panned out. So people are convinced, for example, that testosterone people were convinced. I don't think, I don't know how many people believe it anymore, certainly a lot. But people used to be convinced that testosterone explained why there were more men in engineering and physics, yeah. So that was really common belief. And then people are like, wait, maybe it's the sexism that everyone's complaining about. Maybe that's a part of it. Yeah, people used to believe fully that the testosterone in men made them unable to be caregivers for children, right, right? And I see that less and less, which is good, because it's a really misandrist belief, really anti men. Belief to think that men can't be caring people. We see what that changing

Adam

while we're on this. Can you say a bit more about something that you've said twice now about how gendered experiences change our testosterone? Yeah,

Sari

so this is something that's really exciting. Yeah, it's so basically, we tend to assume that our hormones are set in our bodies, that there's sort of like a level, and that's where we're at. We think of hormones as biological. And many people tend to think of biology. Biology is inherent, innate, genetic, fixed. But there's a group, for example, called behavioural ecologists, or ecologists, who look at how biology is CO constituted, or like, partly made up by the context around it, often environmental, like, is it hot? Is it cold? Are the days short? Are they long? And when it comes to humans, we know that actually there's huge influences on our bodies, including hormones, including testosterone, from what we're doing, so what we eat, whether we're exercising, if we win or lose, if we have sex, even my research is even if we have sexual thoughts, if we engage with other people. And also, when you think about it, so many of those phenomena overlap with gender, and many of us are encouraged to excuse me engage in sexual thoughts or not engage in sexual thoughts. There's a lot of research showing men are pushed to be sexual, to like, enjoy sex, to engage in sex for their own pleasure, and women are pushed to be sexy, to be sort of sex objects for others, as unfortunate as that is, and women are discouraged from being sexual as. So, you know, I still think it's the case that while there's, you know, maybe a few women who talk about masturbating or jerking off, it's very uncommon. Women are really taught not to their bodies are, and my research shows this too, their bodies are for their partners, yeah, especially if they're in mixed gender sex relationships or heterosexual ones. Yeah. But we're finding that when some of these behaviours overlap with ones that testosterone responds to, like sexuality, like power, and there's these gender norms about them that can actually shift testosterone as well. It's not just genetics or biology. So for example, sorry,

Adam

so if I'm hearing you right, so I haven't I have a natural testosterone level. But also, and I'm a man, and there are two things, for example, that are heavily associated with being a man, which is having wanting lots of sex, or having lots of sex, and being successful in society in maybe in particular ways. So if I was able to have a lot more sex and also to be successful in a particular way that I'm supposed to as a man, that might actually raise my own natural testosterone level, I might produce more testosterone in my own body just because I've been winning in society at being a man. Is that what you mean exactly?

Sari

And we found that when women have sexual thoughts, that increases their testosterone, right? Okay, so we know it's like women and men, and of course, there's people outside women and men, but women and men are pushed to do some things, or not to do some things, and those things actually can affect their testosterone. So there's so much of what we That's why I use gender, sex to bring it back. Because there's so many things about bodies that we tend to assume are innate, natural, fixed, biological. But biology is not the opposite of social,

Adam

right, and it's so interesting when you just zoom out for a second and look at the long view of history and the long view of what we now might see say is like this sort of sexist society that we've built up over a couple of 1000 years. You can see how the the norms that we've engendered in the in that society, the social expectations have then reinforced these have reinforced themselves and then therefore influenced our hormones, our natural hormones, in a way that has then made those norms more of like a self fulfilling thing. Yeah,

Sari

it could be. And basically, anything we think is natural, whether it's the environment, whether it's our bodies, we tend to think nothing we do would affect them, but of course, we kind of know that's not true. Like, you know we know we're impacting climate. We know we're impacting our bodies when we think we know when we eat this food, it makes us feel this way and that food makes us feel that way. Yeah, it's just very few of us are able to measure our hormones, so we can't actually test that on a day to day basis. But all of that is happening, you know, just under our skin, yeah.

Adam

So let's go back to sexual configurations theory, because that was a very, very useful little side journey there into gender, sex and what might happen there. I want to explore some of the other layers, or components, factors in SCT, in the in the funnel and the tornado. And I just want to ask, where does the various different kink or fetish experiences fit in?

Sari

Yeah, so there's two ways. One of the things is people might have been hearing me say the term gender, sex, sexuality, which many people would say is like sort of synonymous with sexual Orient. With sexual orientation, except I'm trying to not, you know, separate orientation. But the reason I talk about gender, sex sexuality is because it's not the only aspect of our sexuality, including that many people used to define themselves. So I also talk about something called partner number sexuality, and there is these SCT diagrams you can use to locate yourself in those as well, and that has to do with the number of partners you want to have, none one or more than one. And so that's one way that SCT connects with kink and fetish, in part, because not so much anymore, but also a little bit people used to think of group sex, or multiple sex partners, as something to do with kink and fetish, right? Like group sex is sometimes seen as that, sometimes not. And so you can actually think about it that way, and that matters quite a lot. It also allows us to disaggregate for gender, sex, sexuality or partner number sexuality, what I call nurturance and eroticism, and that's really important too, because in the same ways, people have conflated all sexuality with gender. Sex, sexuality, even though some people would say the most important aspect of their sexual identity has to do with being polyamorous or asexual, which isn't a gender, sex, sexuality, people have conflated nurturance and eroticism, and that really matters, because not everyone has romantic. Like sexualities, not everyone has erotic ones. So we see from for example, asexual people, many of whom do want to have romantic relationships, and many of whom don't that erotic sexuality doesn't have to be tied up in that. And many people want to have erotic sexual connections, and not romantic ones. And for some people, the two are really tied up together. So SCT allows us to separate those which kink folks have talked a lot about being important, because sometimes the kink is related to erotic connections and not the romantic ones or nurtured ones or vice versa. And then let I don't explore it very much in mind, because I'm not a kink researcher, but we do talk about kink sexuality in SCT, because, like, gender, sex, sexuality and like partner number, sexuality King, sexuality is a really important aspect of some people's sexual lives, or their lives in general, right? Sometimes, like, you know, if you were to say what's your sexual identity, being kink identified might be the key part of someone's sexual identity and not being, let's say heterosexual or queer. For some people, queer might mean kink as well, or not being asexual, or so on. So we make space for kink to be primary in people's sexuality, or at least as important for some people as other aspects of sexuality as well,

Adam

right? And actually that, I mean, that's bringing to mind the work of Richard Sprott, who was a guest on free sex in Episode 38 of talking specifically about kink as as identity and the different the different elements. There different layers there as well. I think so. Yeah, cheesy, cheesy plug there to listeners, if they're if you're enjoying, sorry talking about this, and then go on, you can go on a side track there and speak to you or hear from Richard. Okay, that's really helpful. So this is the work that you've been developing over some time. What's the most cutting edge version of this? What are you doing right now?

Sari

Yeah. So we have a new paper out looking at partner number sexuality, with people's diagrams, those sexual configurations where they actually locate themselves. And we have some really neat data about people who are what we might call multi sexual, and people who are what we might call non sexual, and people who sort of even challenge that distinction, right? Because we're trying to challenge binaries in all the work. So we have some really neat visualisations there, and we also have a paper just under review about plural sexuality, so people who are attracted to andor sexual people of more than one gender sex. And it's interesting, because people often focus on bisexual people or pansexual people, but there's also, of course, queer people, and there's hetero flexible people, and there's lots of heterosexual and gay or lesbian people who are attracted to people of more than one gender sex, yeah. So it's like, if we mean plurisexual to mean identity, then obviously lesbian, gay and heterosexual people are not plurisexual. But if we use it to mean status, like, have you ever been with someone of a similar gender, sex and other gender sexes, or if we use it to mean orientation, are you interested or attracted to, then there's so much more. And it's really cool, because we thought about like, definitionally pluralsexual, so bisexual, pansexual, potentially plurisexual. We thought of as maybe like queer and hetero, flexible, and then seemingly non plurisexual. We thought about as lesbian, gay and heterosexual. But our empirical data actually pointed to different groups. Yeah, they pointed to queer, bi pan as one group, and then heterosexual and hetero, flexible as one group, and then lesbian and gay as one group. So we're able to, I think one of the neatest things about this work is that we're able to help people make sense of themselves. People with kind of, what you might think is very simple, gender, sex, sexualities or partner sexualities, people with very complex ones, people with majoritized ones or minoritized ones. And people are often able to like, they often tell us, Wow, I like, never was able to make sense of this before. I learned something about myself today, or I learned about diversity. We're even finding that it acts as a pro diversity initiative, that when people fill it out, they learn about themselves, like we once had a trans woman who's like, you know, I just really didn't understand anything about non binary. People like this made me understand. But also, you know, the scientist in me is excited about all that and passionate about it. And, like, cool, we can visualise all these things, yeah, you know, this, instead of a pile of laundry, we actually have this model where we can look at and compare groups, compare within groups, and make sense of that.

Adam

Yeah, it's that's that's going to be really powerful. And I also have to say, like as a writer who writes quite a lot about queer history, I often find myself in trouble when I'm trying to write about, for example, men who go into public toilets to find other men to have sex with, but would not at all identify with label like by gay or even bi, and also they, if I'm writing about a man in 1972 doing that then, or 1932 doing that, then that's even a different prospect, even whether those words would even would have been right a. Well. So then I like this idea of status and behaviour and not just the labels there. I think hopefully, you know, somewhere in that, in that, that ecosystem of new words and new identities and new experiences and and, yeah, your diagrams, hopefully we'll find a way to get there so that we can talk about people more fairly, more accurately. What does it mean? Do you think to be doing this work at this particular moment in time, in 2025 you know it's, it's 150 years of sexology research, and yet, where are we right now with it?

Sari

Yeah, and I think this brings us back again to that beginning question you asked, and where I talked about those concept of epistemic injustice or hermeneutical injustice, the injustice of what we know of our knowledge systems. And you know, I've always felt that way about my work, that it can be the basis for other people to do applied work with, like we're making some guides for clinicians and educators to use, because people find doing SCT so useful for themselves or to making sense of partners and family members and friends. But the injustice part feels all the more salient as people are co opting or malapropriating terms like gender ideology, and instead of meaning things like patriarchy or toxic masculinity or enforced femininity, they're using it to mean feminism or queer or trans approaches. So having a theory that helps everyone make sense to themselves, having a theory where there's space for gender, sex and sexual diversity feels like, you know, in the past month, it just the stakes feel entirely different. And I'm sort of horrified by that, because obviously I wish my work didn't feel so I mean, scientists dream the scholars dream is that their work is relevant. But is it like it feels like, may you live in interesting times? It feels like a bit of a curse to everyone else anyway. And so while I wish my work wasn't relevant, I feel the stakes have definitely increased, and I'm trying to grapple with that. What does that mean in a world where people are literally erasing, or, well, they're not erasing, they're trying to erase, non binary people, trans people, basically anyone who isn't heterosexual and cisgender, my work takes on, to me, a new significance, a new importance in making sure we're doing work that is empirical, accurate and just,

Adam

and in the US, they're cancelling science grants right now. Right What does that mean for work like the work that you're doing, even though you're in Canada, yeah,

Sari

so it does make it makes me realise the privilege and responsibility of the work I'm doing. I'm a well funded researcher. I have a Canada 150 research chair, and our country is committed to liberal work that is progressive, that takes diversity seriously. That takes minoritization Seriously. But there's always forces here that are trying to undermine that and change that, forces, you know, globally aligned. I sound like a conspiracy theorist, except it's really real, globally aligned. And what happens in the US impacts all of us, and especially us here in Canada, in some ways, because we're so close, because our science is so intertwined, and it impacts me in a more personal way. I'm seeing my colleagues impacted, and especially my gender sex minority colleagues, my sexual minority colleagues, because disproportionately, they're more likely to be doing this important work. So I think it impacts all of us. It galvanises all of us. It depresses all of us, and it makes all of us realise how crucial this work is.

Adam

If you were based in the US right now, and you had funding from that, ultimately came from the government, would your would your funding be removed right now?

Sari

That's a good question. I'm thinking about some of the projects we're doing. We're doing some work with collaborators from the intersex community, for other researchers in the US, looking at SCT with intersex people who we've had in some of our other studies, but we haven't done a specific study. And I'm like, I have a hard time believing that work wouldn't get funding cut, and I'm not trying to sort of do, like, what people call disaster porn. And like, you know, I'm fortunate to be where I am, where my funding isn't getting cut. So yeah, but I it's hard to imagine the work I'm doing would emerge unscathed in the US, given that they're focusing specifically on the terms I'm using, gender, diversity, sexuality, sexual minority, and even when I was a professor at the University of Michigan for a decade, and we when we applied for grants, we all did try to avoid terms that had to do with sexuality and minoritization, when, when we were writing the grants we use. Just synonyms and euphemisms and so on, as we you know, everyone was instructing each other to do, but this is a just a different level. Literally, they're cutting grants midstream, saying trans people don't exist, so we're not funding research on trans people. Yeah, again, very anti empirical, anti scientific, anti go out of your house and open your eyes.

Adam

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, it's a bit of a bum note to leave it on, but I think we we have to leave it there so that I can let you get back to your super important work. Sorry. Thank you so much for taking the time and explaining this and well, creating this, helping us, yeah, really helping to create the way that we can know ourselves, so that we can get to a world where we can have the sex that we want, which I think is like a really important kind of foundational idea of what I'm trying to do with this podcast of free sex. So thanks for helping us to know ourselves well.

Sari

Thank you so much for having me. And I think although I agree, it's a bum note, I think it helps make clear why. Hopefully my work, work related to this, and your podcast and all these efforts are so crucial. I mean, it's, it's not just free sex and better sex. It's, it's, you know, liberatory. Do people have the right to exist? Are they going to be able to exist in ways that do get them the sex they want that allow them to do. Yeah, so thank you so much for this work.

Adam

Thank you.

—

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode!

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX - the idea or this podcast!

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x

Listen to this episode on your podcast player of choice.

Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith.

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex?

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome.

Let’s go!

—

How should we regulate sex clubs?

My guest in this episode is Karl Verboten, one of the masterminds behind one of London’s greatest kink club nights, Klub Verboten.

Karl told me the story of how Klub Verboten had to fight an archaic licensing system in order to hold parties that are sex-positive and safe at the same time. It’s a really fascinating story to do with local politics, legal regulations, the relationship between club promoters and the police — and it even involves kinky people sending sexy photos of themselves to the local council!

Karl has discovered that good sex spaces require dialogue between promoters and the authorities. Together, Karl believes, they are creating a new culture around sex spaces that places ‘traditional knowledge’ from the kink community at its heart.

Karl Verboten, welcome to Free Sex.

Karl

Hi.

Adam

Thanks very much for taking the time. I really want to get into the detail with you, of like, things like local politics and regulation around sex parties. So I think it's really, really interesting and super important, and I think this is the space where we can do that. So my question for you, Karl, is, how do we get to a world of free sex where we can have the sex we want?

Karl

Good question. I mean, at least for the for the UK, right? I think it's really a question that we need to point towards, local authorities, local government and similar institutions, right? Because, whilst you have like, are you free sex, right in other European places like Berlin and of course, with that, there's also pitfalls of that. In the UK, we're facing a very conservative wall that partly that's a much now anymore, but maybe 678, years ago, didn't even want to entertain the thought of it. Didn't even want to entertain the conversation on it. Part of our work was, and has been, always will be, that we try to turn the table around and bring this big debate and conversation to the local authorities right in order to create dialog and in order to promote togetherness and transparency and safeguarding measures, rather than firm dated licensing laws. And by doing so, I do firmly believe that we enable cultural spaces which can host exactly the conversations that we need and that we haven't even fully started yet. Right to move to a world where free sex as such, right? And by free, I mean inclusive sex, consensual sex and so on, can happen because the majority of the people in the room share a common understanding of what that means. Yeah, that is a process that is not something that we achieve by an Instagram post or by a single narrative or it's something that takes a lot of time. Yeah,

Adam

so I like that word process in this conversation, like, I think that's really useful, because it's not just like, ah, let's snap our fingers and change the law or change the policy, or even change the local councilors, or something like that. And it's not something that is going to change overnight. It's about a process. It's about a culture of being open to talking about and creating the kinds of spaces where people can have the sex they want, with safeguarding and everything like that. Right? So I wondered if you could tell me the story of club verboten in the past few years especially, and where you've, let's say, faced challenges with local authorities and what's happened there. Because I think that's going to be a really interesting example for us to carry with us as we go through into like, a bigger discussion?

Karl

Sure, yeah, it changed massively. I mean, about five years ago, right? We, we initiated a dialog with Enfield Council, and we argued that in the certain borough of the of the certain part of the borough, there wasn't any queer space, right? Not even there was a queer space. There wasn't really any cultural volume, volume, but there was a venue that we were really keen to work with. So we initiated a call with, you know, the licensing team of the police, environmental protection, licensing and so on. We had a real nice exchange for like, two hours, and we presented them, you know, how we gained our knowledge, visually, right? In the presentation, look, there's our community, you know, by a bunch of guys with their bums out, right? I

Adam

love the idea of you giving, like, a PowerPoint presentation, those photos to like the police and the local authority. Yeah, this is the pie we're planning. Okay?

Karl

We showed him everything. We're transparent. And I was kind of shocked that no one had any questions. Kind of nodded it and like, Hey, do you understand anything when you talk about it? SO DIVE INTO and I stayed absolutely quiet and got off the call, and three weeks later, I get a letter of the legal department threatening us with a maximum fine of six months of. Prison meant if we would ever dare to come back to the borough. And the headline was, we researched you, and you appeared to be a sex club.

Karl

we don't appeal. We are yes, and

Adam

you have been transparent about that from the beginning, like.

Karl

Yeah, you know that is the point, right? I mean, their intention was to introduce them to our community and all the good things that come out of it, right? And, yeah, they were so scared that they couldn't imagine any other possible way of engagement than threatening us with imprisonment, yeah, which is beyond belief, yeah, yeah.

Adam

And then have you had, you've had other conflicts and challenges with other boroughs as well, right?

Karl

Oh, yeah. Non stop. We were then there after, we were running in Tower Hamlets with a local club for quite some time, and we're slowly building us up. And you know, moving premises always means you it's not just moving an event from A to B open the doors. It takes months of retraining the staff, filling out the right kind of security and so on, to come to a point where you can confidently say, okay, we can let over 1000 people in here, and we can ensure relatively safety for them. So But whilst, once we got to this point, there was an incident with a another promoter that happened to use the same menu, and the venue got sent into a license review whilst we condemned what happened at this other event, right? It hit us next in the calendar on the council looked at us and oh, they shouldn't be there. You don't have to appropriate license for this. And the whole argument seemed to be around a dated Licensing Act that concerned nudity and semen, nudity in clubs, in licensed premises, but was only originally concerning performers. So the council have tried to manufacture something together. Why this event can't happen? Right? Because they didn't have the knowledge to come up with a real argument. Yeah. And it really clashed, because this actor specific act only considered two binary genders. So in the eyes of the council, they said, you can't be new to see me nude, because if you can't ensure that you check based on their on their gender, what they can wear and what they can't wear, and we can't run this event. But if it's really bizarre, yeah, and we said okay. A week before the event, we also asked all our ticket holders to send a detailed description of the outfit to local authorities, and asked them whether that is okay to wear this yes

Adam

or no, because we didn't want to make this decision yes,

Karl

and the council got flooded with 893 letters Wow. And it, you know, it really engaged, really retrospectively, healthy conversation right around how much involvement is necessary by local government in our private lives when it comes to our dress code. Yeah. And over this conversation, we managed to retain the license of the of the venue and continue running those events.

Adam

Can you explain to me a little bit more about how the system works currently with licensing, with the Boros that you're familiar with in London, like, what are the different types of licenses that different types of venues and promoters need to have if there's going to be sex and nudity? I should say, yeah,

Karl

yeah. So it's yeah, it's a really interesting question, I think, up until finger this way, right? Like sex spaces, King space and so on, existed for 30 years and more. What never really happened was this very open, transparent discussion about it, until these cases happened, and until we kind of went out and about with what the nuts and bolts of this conversation, it was kind of this almost gate kept secret. And by keeping this a secret, I think a lot of people stayed in the underground. Loads of events were happening. The council really turned a blind eye, and other promoters kind of didn't make it a topic, because, you know, it's like the recipe that Coca Cola keeps in a trestle, right? Almost, yeah. But it didn't as a whole, for the community as a whole, it wasn't, it wasn't really beneficial. So part of our work there was to to just make it absolutely clear that sex is not a licensable activity under current legislation, and to further establish that right now, among, at least among the authorities, there's no expert on this topic. So right now, the community holds much more knowledge around safeguarding, around ethos and so on than local authorities have. Who should have this knowledge, because they try to regulate these spaces, right? And with that. But we started off a world where everything kind of worked by turning a blind eye. And once there was an incident, a sexual assault and so on, the council would step in close places, withdrawal, license and so on. We moved now to a place where we, I think there's a broad understanding that sex is not a licensable activity down to the element of of performance. It's money exchange for performance, right or sexual entertainment. There may be considerations around an SUV license, which is currently there to almost said, regulate sex cinemas, shops and strip clubs. Was more there to make the vanish of the landscape right. But I think the future aspect of the future outlooks on this could be that we go away from licensing, that we're going away from over regulating, and that we acknowledge the points are actually necessary to run those spaces right, which are safeguarding manuals, which is a code of conduct, which are vetting procedures and so on, and make them transparent and make them available across the board, from the authorities to the police to us, in order to have a bit of confidence right in the community and that those events can be run safely.

Adam

And so at the moment, I'd love to, I want to talk about that alternative model there. Let's just hold that for a second about what what we could create, because I want to come back to it. But at the moment, you talked about sex shops and sex cinemas and other kinds of spaces like that, and sex entertainment venues. So you basically, if you are one of those, or if you think that the council might perceive you as one of those, then your you have to apply for some kind of license. You mentioned s something license, yeah.

Karl

So the only thing the UK, because local authorities currently know and understand when it comes to license, is the sev licensed sexual Yeah, yeah. It's called the sexual entertainment venue license, and one would argue that they are to regulate strip clubs, sex cinemas, sex shops and so on. But it's mainly, historically, mainly been used as a tool to get rid of those places, right? Because loads of local authorities would then lobbied by some certain groups out there, right? Like the buying it group would adapt a nil cap policy. So they would say, okay, legislative side says these places are legal and part of the leisure industry, therefore you need to enforce and regulate up on this basis. And the way you do it is by applying the SUV license. However, then they would sneakily put in this nail cap and say, Yeah, we could totally get it and we totally tolerate it, but we find that our borrow is not suitable for it. Okay,

Adam

so we, we have zero SUV licenses available, actually, yeah, yeah. Okay, you need an SUV license, but we actually don't have any, right? Yeah, so you can't apply for one. Sorry. Go home. Yeah,

Karl

right. And this is, this is just like this good herring. It's just, What a bizarre thing, right? The only thing it really says, You really haven't got your head around this, and obviously there's, right now a cultural shift happening, and you're not equipped for it and not have for it, and you clearly don't understand this topic.

Adam

Yeah, that's right, and that's and that cultural shift that you're talking about seems to have happened really, in quite a short space of time in London and UK, especially in the past couple of years, really. And I think since COVID, it's really the landscapes change quite significantly. And that's why there's just more and more parties like yours and others that are just like fully open, you know, you know in how they present themselves, as what they are for, and that that's just happened really quickly, and way too quickly for the local authorities to keep pace, hasn't it? So actually, why do you think that change has happened so quickly on behalf of the parties, what's what's change where promoters, like you are just saying, like, openly, like, Yeah, this is the kind of party that we have. We don't want to do the underground dis, you know, the stuff that's invisible, the underground invisible stuff anymore. We want to have an Instagram account, by the way, let's not talk about Instagram censorship. That's a different episode. But, yeah, what's changed?

Karl

I think there's just a new generation, right, that came to the scene that just didn't had any issue with identifying them publicly with their sexuality anymore, in their capacity? No, yeah, that's good and bad in one sense, but I think it really allowed to initiate those dialogs, right? Yeah, sadly, a couple of years ago, you know, when we had this really hard pushbacks and a lot of conversations local authorities and I said, Look, ultimately, you've got an opportunity. Evil. You can talk to the ones that come to you and actively seek the conversation, or you have to deal eventually with an ambush of so many events that, yeah, you then have no clue anymore how to regulate, right? And this really happened, and I think part of that is, you know, there's this newer generation that comes to it that shows a bit more open and a bit more blunt about their sexuality that is not so easily to brush off and get scared, you know, by local authority threats. But also, generation may be tired of running like I personally don't feel like I've done anything wrong, you know. So there was never a need to run away like when they threaten us. Well, I don't feel like I should be a prisoner. Disagree. Yeah, and, but then also, I think, you know, COVID people being locked away for so long, yeah, the real need to actually human connection, right? There was a real need for togetherness. There was a real need for 500 loads of people around you and making physical encounters again, right? So one way is good, in one way it's slightly bad. Because, again, you know, for any sustainable culture to grow these processes, usually you would expect to be very slow if a community, a subculture, a market, gets flooded with over offerings, there is not just a certain fatigue that comes along with it, but there's also always the question, okay, what is what? What is safe now, what's not right? Like, yeah, because right now we're getting ambushed with like, sex offerings, left and right, yeah.

Adam

And then also you get sort of like bad things happening, which then cause problems for all of everyone in that sphere, right? Like, if one, if some, if one thing goes bad at one party, then, then everyone perceives all of the all of those same types of parties to be the same and to have the same problems, even though it might just be that one party, so it's a tricky balance. Yeah, I was interested in the point that you made about the problem that you had with Tower Hamlets, about the dress code and the gender binary thing I'm not quite clear on what the Council were thinking there. And I'm not being, I'm not being sort of like facetious about it. I'm just wondering whether you can clarify for me what they actually said. Does it mean that you can only have that you need to you can only have nudity in single sex spaces? Is that? Is that what they were saying?

Karl

Yeah. So they were heavily so that the council itself right, although, like on the outside, we often think, Oh, they're judgmental, and they're doing this government body right, they can only act on based on little bit framework guidance they have in front of them. It's not that, yeah, someone comes up as, oh, we shouldn't have these spaces. They clearly have an opinion on it, right? Yeah? Try to enforce it by using those paragraphs better, they really can just fall back on their paperwork. And what was used. There was a Licensing Act. It was originally and it's very old, there to regulate performers in strip clubs and club spaces and so on. And initially, with a very conservative and very dated background, there may have been some goodness to that back then, right? Yeah, to regulate, okay, how far this can go in terms of an action with performers, and what I can wear and so on, okay, yeah, I don't think it's always pure evil, yeah, right,

Adam

yeah. So it might be serving the protecting performers in a for example, yes,

Karl

yeah, yes, yeah. It's just time, and the way local authors have enforced these things weren't necessarily good, yeah, I see Yeah. So we're not really talking about a complete abolishment of regulation, but it just needs to be contemporized. It needs to make sense, and it needs to do the things that we expected from them, like keeping, you know, ticket holders and people that work in those premises safe.

Adam

Yes, yeah. And I love that piece that you did where you You told all of your ticket holders to send a photo of themselves and their outfit to the council like that. I mean, how much of that was you trying to comply with the requirement, whilst also showing how ridiculous it was. Like, what was the balance there between you, between those things?

Karl

It wasn't the first thing we did, right? So we, we've been in a five, six months dialog going back and forth, yeah, where I think the initial conversation when I called them, they said, Well, you're not the license holder. We're not talking to you. And I got, well, I'm responsible for those people in those spaces during that night. And I think there's a lot of we can learn again from each other. Yeah, and the conversation didn't really happen until you sometimes would just drop a little. Ridiculous bump on them, yeah, in order to create pressure on order and to come back to the table and have the actual conversation. Okay,

Adam

yeah. So that was one of those. You dropped this, this gauntlet down in front of them in the form of 800 photos of super sexy people. Okay, so it sounds as well from your tone, that you have quite a bit of sympathy for the people that work in the council. It sounds like, Yeah, is that? Is that fair to say?

Karl

I wouldn't necessarily call it sympathy. I think like I, let's say I understand that if we want to create a future, it can't be all being it can't be achieved just for rioting. Yeah, like we ultimately have to work together, because if, if we don't, the doors will just close and we can't have these conversations. And I find it, you know, after, after we done for this case, we continue to give workshops and trainings to the licensing department of the of the UK police to local authorities in Manchester and London. And you will be surprised if you come together under different circumstances, which is not necessarily a sexual assault case or the review of a license, then people are quite open to dialogs, and they're quite open to hear you out, and they're quite curious, right? And of course, among you know, 3040, odd members of local authorities, there's always a couple of conservative minds that would just cross their arms and you know, would not another conversation. But I think so far from you know, the results we achieved there were on a much better path. So I'm not necessarily empathetic, of sympathy with people in local council, because they also created a landscape of licensing that i Despite. Right, if you go to shortage these days, it's an absolute war zone, like places like journals, arms and catch and all these places are gone, and they've been replaced by systemized gastro experience, right? Where one person owns 20 bars and they all shit and are all absolutely opposite of any one of us would want to attend a 10 past 8pm so I kind of hold them fairly accountable for that, right? But are also very aware that in the future, we have to, we have to work together.

Adam

Yeah, I see and what else did you learn and observe about the Local Authority staff and the police when you did those training sessions with them, and maybe you're continuing them.

Karl

I mean, really surprised. And, you know, I I totally get it right, like the mentioning the police in the conversation regarding King spaces might really disturb people. Yeah, I fully get that. But you will be surprised, the police is the least of the concern right now. The police is very pragmatic and really just looks at it from a budget and logistical angle. Yeah, right. And during the trainings we gave, we had, of course, they always, you always have one or two conservative minds in the room. But generally, people just wanted to understand, you know, they just want to understand, hey, what is, what is the space about? Like if someone calls us in the middle of the night and says, hey, there is a rubberized, black hooded GIMP in the neighborhood, swinging October ring around, right? They just want to, ah, it's one. Of course, Paul is all good, you know, right? You know, to express this very simply, like for them, it's just a matter of understanding and seeing. Is that a concern to us? You know, is that, is that, potentially, where people get harmed, you know, where we need to put resources? I'm not saying those resources will always be helpful, yeah, I think most of them make things worse, but it's really just a logistical and a budget question for them, and once that is answered, the pressure is gone. So, yeah, it really helped to have those dialogs.

Adam

Did anything has anything surprised you about either the police or the Local Authority staff in how they've responded to some of the specifics when you talk about what happens at King pie?

Karl

And all honestly, always very positively surprised, right? Because there are, of course, these fields that are embedded in us, around judgment of what we're up to and how we live our lives. But, yeah, I can't say that that happened, right? That concerned about the size of butt plugs we use, or how many fucking machines we provide, or, you know, or or how much loop is going to be pumped into this venue that no one really cares, right, right? And what they care about is, hey, what are your measures to keep people safe, right? Yeah, do you they almost from like this daddy perspective, hey, do you really need us to rock up? Or can we trust you that no one's gonna die tonight? Yeah, and I was really surprised about that.

Adam

That's really, really interesting. Okay, well, let's pivot a bit. It to the new future world, because you've teased some of these ideas that you think really should be the things that underpin how we go forward now, like process and dialog and those and moving away from licensing. So help me to build this picture of what a future world could look like where it's more possible to have these kinds of parties without the kind of obstacles that you've seen 100%

Karl

I think it's a long road, right? This is a process that needs to be understood. It's not a thing of opening your super duper, super duper sex party next week, and just going against the storm here, right? Like it doesn't work like that. I think we got at least another two, three years ahead of us, until there's a common understanding of safeguarding practices for these type events, and until the first authorities may have considered to adapt a safeguarding manual, rather than a firm and harsh license, right there is, there was a collective, collaborative piece of work around a safeguarding manual that was drafted last year with Manchester City Council, and that has been brought in circulation and been tested, and everyone's very open to it. And I think there was a very important first step towards this future. Because ultimately, what we want is we want this kind of the same across the board, right? We want to make sure guests are safe. We want to make sure that the risk of harm in this space is diminished. We want to be sure that we're not wasting local government budgets and police resources and so on, through calls out during the night and not disturbing the event, and nuclear safety furlough and so on. And those things are easily achievable if we have transparency, accountability and a common standard that we all adhere to. And that doesn't just include authorities, right? Also includes ourselves of our event and other events, yeah? Because ultimately, there's also this risk, right? We right now we're in a good position where the community with so much knowledge, where the authorities open the talking, but this will only last until something really, really horrible happens again, yeah, and that is very likely the case. So when I say, you know, we we need to deregulate in order to allow culture to flourish, I say this with a little caution, because we'll also then need a sort of safety net that way we can fall into and we need a standard that is applied across the world, and not a standard as applied like in Berlin, you know, where every rave writes in the flyer, oh, we don't tolerate this, but actually, you are by yourself when you enter the store, right? Yeah, we write an opposer, come here. We're against this. But once you go through the store, no one cares about you. There's no other house for help, there's no aftercare, there's no procedure on protocol in place once you are unconscious on the floor, or once you left the premises, we don't want that. We want actual safety. We don't want a falsified or a sort of other European countries where we talk about awareness washing. We don't want that to be established. Well,

Adam

I guess I I need your help more to understand how you can have all of that without a licensing system, just because I can understand why I like how a licensing system helps to create that, because you have to have to apply for a license and say how you're meeting all of These criteria, and then presumably, the the authority investigates whether you can meet those criteria, and then it says, yes, okay, we believe that you can. Here is your license, like, if you just remove that really, really hard, concrete step of having to prove and then someone saying, Yes, I believe you, if you just remove that step. Don't you lose a lot of things, and I'm not sure whether you would gain more. I'm just kind of playing devil's advocate with you to sort of understand what the real difference would be.

Karl

Yeah, yeah. No, it makes complete sense. I think it's it's not so much a matter of a check up on between the promoter and the authority, right? It's a matter of a dialog and check up on between the promoter and the venue. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't believe that the council has capacity to really enforce up on that and check up on that. They already struggled with the SUV and, yeah, already struggled with their venues. They have, you know, look after, I don't think so much as a case. I think if we once, we have a common standard established, right? Yeah, and the council would say, right, without going too much into changing legislation and so on, and local, local government or parliament, right? We just acknowledge this. This thing is sufficient, and you can run these events. However, it works basically a little bit like a risk assessment. However, in a case of an incident. Then we would fall back and see if you have done the absolute necessary. Yeah, I see this more as a checklist that then you would hold right, provided by the local authority. And when they consider a new promoter, they would like, Okay, can you just make sure you take those boxes? Yeah, for the event date. Will check up on this. I see it's, it's just a matter that this happens. It's not so much a matter of who does it, yeah,

Adam

yeah. It's, it's checks and balances in the system. It's responsibility being applied appropriately to, like, to the right parties at the right time in the process. Yeah. And then, as you said, like the Council or the local authority continues on the basis that, like, well, everyone you know, Karl as a promoter and another person as a venue owner, neither of them want to have people die in their party or their venue or something bad happens. So we give them these, this checklist, and then we it's, it is? It's obvious that it's their responsibility to make sure that that is adhered to. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And the the Berlin comparison is interesting there for me about is it really as lawless as you just made it out to be? And is that the case in other places in Europe that you know as well? Yeah,

Karl

yeah, sadly, yes. I think there's, like other European countries that put a lot of responsibility in the hands of the ticket buyer, right? Or, even worse, they say we're community, look out for each other, right? You know, which, then again, like falsifies this idea of safety, relative safety, even more, right in the moment and say, oh, there will be people. We don't know them. They're not here yet, but there surely will be people that look up there.

Karl

I think so. On a European scale, particularly Germany or Austria and so on. I think there's a lot, there's much more good work that has been done by whether it's the awareness Academy and so on, the club commission, there's a lot of entities that invest massively in your education, into upskilling people and so on. So you find way more people are highly qualified and skilled on these, on these topics, than the UK. I work in the nighttime economy, okay, but the real necessary is not there, right? It comes from an angle of caring and and doing this voluntarily. But there's also no pitfall if you don't, yeah, and I think that opens up a can of worms, right? Because we're partly living there in an environment where every other technical event or club event, right, right? So that fly, we don't deliver this, and we have awareness teams and we do this, but it's not just safeguarding. It's not just a matter of stuffing your bestie into a high risk vest, it's a process. It takes months and years to upskill people. It takes months of years to gain the necessary knowledge as a operator, promoter or venue owner. And outside of that layer, right? There's also a pre doors process of vetting, of distributing information, and there's an aftercare process. And I can tell you, in our team, we spend almost a almost a third of our annual turnover into safeguarding. Yeah, right. That's a lot of money, and it's, it's a lot of time like that keeps you for a monthly event, one person busy a whole week just to look after the community. Yeah,

Adam

it's amazing, and it's really brilliant that you do that, because it's a great example of how it can be done and how it should be done. And I know that that's what you're, that's part of your game. You know, like you're, you're, you want to do that, and you're showing that it's possible, that it can be done, and everything like that. So I really do think that's really important, that you're doing that. But I want to ask about the skilling point that you mentioned, and how in Germany and Austria that there's more kind of like formal skills around in the people who do these kinds of things do these kind of parties, compared to here, and it made me think about history and how like in it's not like kink events are new. It's not like, like actual sexual fetishes are new, or sex parties, or anything like that is is new, right? These have been going on for hundreds of years, and especially in the kink community, there has been a long term process of safeguarding and taking care of each other, right? And this is all very informal, and it's kind of like part of the culture. And so I guess I want to ask, you know? And there are films, you know, there's like examples I'm thinking of, like rebel dykes, the film you know, about the age. In the 90s with the sort of BDSM queer women and how and the kind of parties that they run. I mean, it sounds, sounds. I'm not sure that safeguarding was particularly high on the agenda there, but nevertheless, safeguarding is a thing that that that the kink community has had for decades. So my question is, how good do you think the kink community and the sex positive community is at passing on this kind of information and this kind of care from one generation to the next?

Karl

Relatively good, I mean, many of the rules and ethos that we use, right? Yeah, it's pre existing. Sorry, I'm getting a call here. It's not from the top. Again, I think they're very good at this, because many of the rules and ethers that we're using has been, has been pre established, right? So what had to happen is, and that's an ever ongoing process that these rules need to be modernized and rethought and reprocessed. Right? Because we grow as humans. We develop, we grow as a community. We've developed. What's, what's very sad about is that there was a time where, you know, we had these these lawsuits, with these legal threats, we had the threats we had, the threats of imprisonment and all these things. And when you consider you come out of this history, and then you sit one day in the tube in London, and you have all these postals up and tube and busses that surely good, right? But they lecture you around boundaries, starring voyeurism, personal space, data. And you can wait a second, these are values that come from the King community, right? Yeah. Why are we still being prosecuted? Yeah, it's, it's really interesting to see. Yeah,

Adam

it's a really great example of how a lot of the practices in sexual culture that we now and just interpersonal culture that we've been talking about within the past two years are, like, grounded and founded from the kink community from like, decades ago. Yeah, I'm just thinking that there's a kind of weird sort of conflict over the fact that, like you said, the kink community might be good at passing on this shared knowledge and these kinds of skills, and at the same time, one of the features of parties and club culture is that things move and change, like the scene evolves over time. And like, you know, one party is popular for five years, and then it disappears, and then a new promoter arrives and then creates a new party and with new people and so, and it's not like there'll be complete outsiders, although they might be, but sometimes there's like, there's a, you know, people move between scenes and parties, and so there's this constant regeneration, I guess, of the scene, And yet at the same time, there is this attempt to keep a consistent and growing level of skill and care through through that, and that's in just a kind of an extra interesting conflict or challenge there.

Karl

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, like every, every new generation obviously, always thinks that they invented at all.

Adam

That's sort of one way of saying what I was thinking, yeah, yeah.

Karl

Which, which is sometimes really interesting, I think, like, quite honestly, right? These days, when you look at a landscape as a whole, it's so much more open than it used to be, yeah? But measured quantity rules, a skill. I think we're also at a fairly early stage. We've run back at a very early beginnings, again, right? Because in the past, you would have variety of small events, mainly underground, and you would have a lot of skill in a room before it comes to complex play scenarios, concerns around rules and consent and so on, yeah? Well, now we have these vast, wide open landscapes, and we're also part of that, you know. But, um, the level of of skill per person room is definitely diminished by by growing out of the subculture into the daylight. So there's, always ups and downs. Yeah,

Adam

that's so interesting. Well, I wonder if we can just carry that thought forward into my final question, really, which is to ask you to paint me a picture of what it could look like if we managed to make the changes through this process that you're talking about, this, this dialog of cult and cultural change gradually in the wider culture, but also within the I guess, within the sex culture. What you know if we do, if we're at the beginning, you said we're at the beginning of something, I think we know. So imagine five or 10 years in the few. Sure, what does the scene look like, and what is its position in the broader culture relative to everything else, really,

Karl

it's really interesting. I think we will have more dynamic and direct links between the TFL post or the community, right and that, I can tell you an example about this. We gave a workshop that in London right before local authorities, and there was a member of Westminster Council who in the Q A session, said, I totally get it. You have this consent and all these things and but consent can be withdrawn, and there's a problem. And I will never forget, I thought it was one of the most interesting questions of the day, also highly controversial, but it was really interesting. Kept me thinking until this day, the person is surely Right, right? Consent can be withdrawn, and that's a good thing, right? That's not a problem. And quite frankly, if you decide to withdraw your consent by a person that is inappropriate to you in a queue at Tesco, then there's really a problem, because there's no safety net to fall into, yeah. So my argument here is, I think, with a allowing this wider landscape to flourish, right, allowing for more exchange, for more dialog, for also more barriers. In a sense, that means, if you want to participate in these places, you have to add here to this code of conduct, to these words, we also slowly, slowly but steadily, broaden a little bit the horizon of the wider outside public right when it comes to these questions, and they will carry that into their bright private lives, right into their homes, and carry on those dialogs they are. And the reason why we make this argument is it's always easily said, Oh, we make a post and then the world's gonna change. Quite that but what I can tell you is that over the last eight years, we had over 30 35,000 Londoners write an application form, and we asked them in this application form to demonstrate us to scale and answer questions around personal space, boundaries, consent, and you will be sometimes shocked. But some people reply, right? Some people would write on the question of, hey, how do you engage in a play scene? What's, you know, the most important thing prior to engaging in play scene, they would say, eye contact. Oh, wow, okay. Or they would say, anything goes. Or, let's say, put on a smile, or, and whilst you could laugh about it, right? I think doing this, at least in our internal processes, showed us that we're not even halfway there, right? Yeah, and the only way where we really create this awareness around it is to keep the dialog going and keep the firewall up, right? And say, Look, if you want to participate in this, we have requirements on you as a person, and we need you to really inherit this, and we need to really process this and apply this at all times. Yeah. So to fully answer your question, I think there is an opportunity, at least locally, with many of these events, and perhaps happening across town and across the divider. UK, yeah, that would just allow for more of these dialogs to happen, and more of these dialogs to happen. We educate ourselves and others more, and then we take this education into the cure Tesco, into the bus, into the tube, and we're better human beings. I

Adam

love that vision because, you know, an easy answer would have been, well, Adam, like there'd be a sex club on every street corner, and there's just more people having kinky sex everywhere all of the time. And that's not what your answer is. It might be that as well, but your answer is a cultural one. Your answer is about the way that we relate to each other and how much the world can learn, how much we all can learn from, I guess, kink culture and like sex positive culture and that that, in and of itself, will maybe create those more numerous sex spaces, but that they should not be created without that kind of culture being like a foundation. So Karl, I think that's an amazing place for us to leave this conversation and just to carry that thought with us. Thank you very much.

Karl

No worries. You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

—

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode!

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX - the idea or this podcast!

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x

Listen to this episode on your podcast player of choice.

Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith.

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex?

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome.

Let’s go!

—

Are sex-positive people too self-righteous?

My guest in this episode is Zachary Zane, a writer whose work focuses on sex and, well, his own experiences as a bisexual slut. Zach literally wrote the book on being a Boyslut.

Zach came on Free Sex to talk about how writers like him (and me), and anyone else talking about sex politics, can improve how we talk about sex. If we are hoping to build a world of free sex, we need to share information about sex in a way that doesn’t alienate people or ‘call them out’. I was super interested in hearing Zach’s opinions on this, mixed with his own experiences of writing about sex.

We even discussed the backlash to Zach’s writings about STIs, and how that was an example of why we need to talk about sex in a more loving and compassionate way.

Adam

Zachary Zane, welcome to Free Sex.

Zachary

Hello. Thank you for having me.

Adam

Thank you very much for joining me. I was thinking if my book about poppers and your book boy slot met in a bar, they might invent a whole new genre of literature. I think so.

Zachary

I think so, a very fun one, I might add.

Adam

It might even be a picture book. So, Zach, tell me, what does free sex mean to you? How do we build a world of free sex?

Zachary

Yeah. I mean, I've been thinking about this question since I know you were gonna ask it, and I wish there was, like, an easy answer, and I feel like if there was, we would have implemented it. But I think one of the big things I haven't seen is just, when just discussing sex and this pleasure revolution and having the sex that you wanna embody without shame, I feel like we have a lot of good information out there. I feel like we live in this era of information, and you can't access it online in a way that you couldn't 30 years ago. Yeah. But the question is, how do we get people to kind of listen to it? How do we get people to actually believe in this? And I feel like we have a culture of somewhat calling people out as opposed to calling people in Yeah, and I can tell you, in the way that I write, I try to write a way that is humorous and digestible and funny and doesn't make you feel like a piece of shit if you've been kind of fucking up in the past. You know, the patriarchy affects all of us. It affects men, it affects women, affects gay people, affects straight people. And we know that, for example, there is toxic masculinity we talk about, you know, nail tears in this way. And I feel like a lot of the thing, and it's tough, because you like, you want to call people out on their bullshit at the same time. If you say, hey, you've been fucking up, you're an asshole, the response is not going to be like, Oh, let me listen to your message. They're going to say, Fuck you and double down. Yeah. So we're seeing, you know, this younger generation of, like, fucking huge Trump supporters like that, because they felt lost by this idea of masculinity, and so they're going back to this would be considered traditional, where they're very clear gender roles assigned for them, where they treat women like shit, yeah, you know, and like so it's like they had the access to this information, but yeah, we did not get our messages across.

Adam

That's very clear. That is such a good point. So what we need to build a world of free sex is better in a better information economy. That's fact that's kind of like, founded on, like, a better style of communication, a better style of communication.

Zachary

And it's tough because I feel like people are angry. People want to call these people out. They don't want the onus. I know, like when I say this, I've gotten flack, especially from straight women who are like, the onus should not be on us. That should not be the burden of labor. Yeah? And I'm like, I get that. I understand your frustration. And I'm not saying excuse, yeah, a man's bullshit. That's not what I'm saying. Make sure they're doing the work and in therapy too. But there is a world in which, hey, I can support you, yeah, in a way that makes you more likely to listen versus fuck you. I'm annoyed. It's like, do you want to get your message across and actually be well received, or do you want to be right and angry? And it's an unfortunate reality of the world we live in, that big of being right and angry. It has not worked.

Adam

Yeah, yeah. It's so true. Do you think that we're at a turning point there because of the thing that you just said about the far right and the younger Trump supporters having been alienated from the conversation and felt like they were made the bad guys by those who had the quote, unquote right answers about sex and sexual politics. Do you think that that is, I mean, that's kind of like a broader point about where we are politically, especially in the where you are in the USA, yeah,

Zachary

it's, I think we're at a I feel like there was an era of like for like millennials, people my age, before Gen Z, Gen alpha, where there was this, I feel like, very strong shift towards sex positivity. And there was, like a decade period of that, and I feel like we are somewhat seeing a backlash to it and regressing in a way that, like I felt like we were going the right direction for a while, and then the pendulum has swung back very quickly and violently and kind of like make it in a way that's making my head turn and spin. And yeah. So yeah, I feel like we're in a point of pushback. Unfortunately, we're not, and we're not necessarily going in this again. I don't like saying, like, right and wrong again, like, even just that language is not good, but in a way that is sex positive, less, you know, sexual shame and that type of stuff. I feel like we were on the right path for a little bit, and then, yeah, then and now. It's not look at my cat,

Adam

how when you were writing Boyslut, you know, which is like a book that kind of draws on quite a few years of experience, writing already, writing columns and making work about sex, and talking about sex a lot and your own experiences, but it was also a few years in the making, and that was an interesting few years in terms of sexual politics and cultural politics, I think so. I'm just wondering, like, how, as you were writing that, how did your own understanding or thought process of a style change and evolve over that time?

Zachary

Well, yeah, it's I felt like I was writing it almost at the tail end of this peak of sex like positivity, right? So I was able to kind of be, I think, a little bit more free in what I was saying. My messages were definitely well received, yeah? But in terms of style, I'm trying to think, like, I don't know again, like I wrote with definitely some levity and humor, and that's something that I always write with. We're in a way where, if we're having fun and laughing about this, and we're able to laugh at ourselves at this, and we're able to turn this kind of scary topic into something that is funny and enjoyable. I just feel like people are more likely to actually listen to my message or like, yeah,

Adam

yeah. Do you remember if you wrote something just because you had to, like, get it down and get it out, and then you reread it, and you thought, oh, actually, this is not the style that I'm trying to go here. This isn't my calling in that was taking that was something

Zachary

where I was very lucky to have an editor who kind of saw what the messaging was, because at times it just got a little bit too, like, heavy. And there's nothing wrong with like, being just heavy and more serious. But even when that is the case and we're talking about something serious, like, my editor would be like, hey, still inject some humor. Inject some covid, like, and again, not undercutting it again. You don't want to say something super serious and be like, well, JK, and do a joke. It's not that, but it's a way that, like, that wasn't that, wasn't how I was writing the rest of the book. So it would have been a little bit out of place to just have this big, heavy bomb without Yeah, without Yeah, making it a little bit more accessible, or, yeah,

Adam

yeah. Can you say more about the structure of the book? Because you've got these four sections, like, shame, confusion, security, I think pride, yeah, pride and how, like, those are all quite big concepts. Yeah, and I understand why you structure the book like that, but, well, no, I can make guesses, but I want to hear from you why you structure the book like that, because they're quite big topics to get into.

Zachary

I think it's also just to kind of show the progression, I think is really what it was, where it's like, you don't go from a sexual confusion to sexual pride overnight. And for me, it was like, Okay, I had to kind of go through these steps of being a point of sexual shame and the architecture sexual Yeah, sexual shame to pride overnight. Like, it's shame. And then I'm like, Okay, I'm a little bit confused. Okay, yeah, okay. What's the next step? The next step. The next step is being secure. What's the next step after security pride? So just kind of to show that progression over time, right? As yeah this. This is truly a journey to get where you want to be. It's not going to be an overnight yeah solution,

Adam

yeah. And how, how do people respond to you talking about shame specifically, because that's something that's come up on so many episodes of free sex, and in all the work that I've done, shame is such a big thing that we're lugging around. I

Zachary

think one of the things is, and this is like, a good question that I get, is, like, Okay, how do I what my therapist will say, like, you know this in your head, versus you know it in your body, and actually feel it where it's like, I know I shouldn't experience sexual shame. I'm reading all these books. They're telling me not to do this. I'm following the right social media influencers that are encouraging this. And even though I logically know this, I still can't help but feel it. And so there's that disconnect there. And a lot of what this book was about was, okay, how do we know this in our body? How do we actually believe this? Because logically, so many of us know, but logic isn't what's steering the wheel right now, you know? I mean, it's your emotions. It's so deep rooted. So I think that question of, how do I. Logically know this, versus how do I actually feel it and believe it and embody it? And was kind of a big question that I was trying to tackle, because that, as someone who is a sex columnist, like, I get these people writing and being like, I know this, I know this, I know this. I just can't do it. And it's like, how do I do this? And the thing is, it's again, like, I hate being with those people where it's like, it depends on your personal shit, but it does depend on your personal shit. There definitely are some more universal truths, and we can get into them if we want to, like, but like it is, you got to figure out what specifically is at the root of your insecurities and your shame and unpack it that way.

Adam

Yeah, exactly. You got to really do, do the work as they say, yeah, as they say. But then that makes me think about the fact that there is so much stuff out there now, like you said, you know, you're, there's your columns, there's your book, there's there's, you know, let 1000 sex columnists bloom, and 1000 influences, anti shame influencers, you know, they're all out there. And so I just thinking about, what does that? How does that help us get to their world of free sex? Because on the one hand, you said we've got, we've got all, we've got all the possibilities and capabilities now to get the right message out. And yes, there's a question of the style that you do that in, right? Do I get that? But is, is it inherently a good and positive thing, and like helping us build a world of free sex, that there is the possibilities for so much information, or is it just makes the whole thing even more competitive to get a message across? No,

Zachary

I do think for the most part, it is the former, and that I do think generally, like, just like, more positive, sex positive, you know, reducing sexual shame content is good. And I don't think it's like, yeah, like, Whatever, whatever it takes to get that message across. And having different voices is important, and having people share their different experiences absolutely is important. So I think I understand, like the concern was just like, oh, there's too much information and it's kind of somewhat overwhelming. Or where do I pick and choose from? But I think as a reader, or as someone trying to digest content, you can decide, yeah, like which which voice, which style, which person is. Yeah, am I resonating with the most? And I think that is good to have just as many different voices out there as possible.

Adam

I guess I'm also a bit perplexed by and confused and maybe disappointed in the world by the fact that, like, a lot of my work is like about, like history, but not that far away. So like, I've written, made work about the 70s and the 80s and the 90s, and I've met a lot of people from who, like, have memories of those times as adults. And I've like read books on those times, and even books which are about, you know books being one of the main mediums, I suppose. But like, you know books which are about anti shame for gay men, yeah, you know, you know book like that published in 1978 and then when there was another book published in the UK just about five years ago, which was basically anti shame for gay men, book which was amazing in its own right, but it's kind of billed as, like, the first book of its type, and it's like, not true. And I'm not saying that the 70s and the 80s were like, awash with great information. And also, yes, it was books. We didn't have things like podcasts and Instagram accounts and all these other options and different ways of for people to like, digest information. But I guess I'm thinking like you said at the beginning, there's, there's a lot of information out there now, and it's great that there is that, but it's not necessarily always in the right style. It's not reaching the right people. And I'm thinking like, hasn't that been the case for quite some time now? And therefore, like, what does that show us about information asymmetry, I guess. And like, what we do about that? Yeah,

Zachary

I think, yes. And no, I think it was a lot harder to access stuff 50 years ago. And I think, like, Oh, you have to go into a bookstore and buy a book that is embarrassing. That's something that's gonna out you as being gay. And you don't want the bookshop keeper to know this. I don't know what the librarian to go to know this? Yeah, there's a lot of ways to now. Oh, I just have this social media account that I follow. I can buy a book on Amazon. No one sees me doing it. I can read it on my Kindle, on in public, in a way that if I don't want people to read a title of and I don't want them to see a book, but that says, Boyslut on it, okay, you get it on the Kindle. So I do think it's, I still, you still have to seek it out, you know what I mean, like, and there is that initial barrier into seeking it out. But it is, I still think, yeah, I think a lot easier to get it now than it was 40, 50 years ago.

Adam

Yeah, yeah. And that. That has to be a good thing out of itself. Yeah. And I it's interesting to think about how, like, how the ability for information to get out there, how that has accelerated even in the past five or 10. Oh, yeah. But it's kind of, I guess, what's perplexing is that we're still clearly living in an era that's like, still quite riven with shame, yeah, and confusion about these things, despite including among young people, including among the people that are very online and very much about receiving information.

Zachary

It depends where you end up. You know what I mean? You end up like, because for as much as there's so much sex positive and sexual removing sexual shame content, there's an equal amount of pushback from this, right? So if you fall down, I think that's what we're seeing, the wrong or, again, I don't like saying right or wrong. Let's say a sex negative or pro, patriarchal or pro, like, very strict gender roles. Rabbit hole down this YouTube, it's like, that's what we're seeing, right? Where it's kind of like, there's a path here, yeah, and you kind of went down the sex negative pack path as opposed to the sex positive one,

Adam

yeah, yeah. What do you think is the role of people like you in the world in the future, where we have managed to build a free sex world.

Zachary

My God. I mean, if I ever reach a point where I'm out of a job because the world is too sex positive and there's not enough sexual shame in me addressing it, I will happily figure out another career. Okay, I don't see that happening anytime soon, so I think I'll still, I'll still be kind of pushing the same message forward in various different ways. But do

Adam

you think that there would always be the need for like people to be Yeah, sharing stories and making work that's about sex? It might just be Yeah, more about different things that people do.

Zachary

I don't know. I still do think so. And like, you know, I, like, I'm in my, like, definitely my liberal progressive bubble here in Brooklyn and like, and so you think, like, oh, everyone knows about, like, how to remove sexual shame. That's like, that's that's not the case. I know this from my work. Like, yeah, where we again? Like, I still want a diversity in stories. I don't want necessarily the same, the same story about, you know, a gay boy who brought who grew up in the South and was kicked out his family for being gay, and it was very Christian household. It's like, okay, that story's been told, and that's an important story, obviously, and that's why it keeps being told and resonates with so many people. But like, you know, I was one of the first people to really do like, I like, this type of, like, bisexual male memoir about, like, like, looking at, like, shame through this bisexual male perspective, like I should not have been. Again, I don't want to take away from other people, but I really was one of the first, and that's why it became such a sensation. And that's who it read like, like, just like the BI male story hadn't been told, which is, or at least in this way, yeah, which is why I was able to do it. So just I want, yeah, I want to make sure we're still not telling everyone's stories right now, and I think that's in large part of it. So I still think we're at a point of like, yes, there's a lot of information, but still it's a combination of, I still think there needs to be more information. And then, yeah, going back to, how do we proliferate this information, how we got people listening to our message? And again, I know, keep bringing it up, and there's, there's a balance, because I don't want to tone police anyone, and what it is that they're trying to get their message across, but like, the same time, yeah, it hasn't been reaching the audience that it needs to reach. So, so, right, how do we find that balance? Do you think

Adam

there's too much self righteousness in the sexuality of community.

Zachary

Absolutely, it's in again, I think it comes from a place of frustration. It comes from a place of anger. It comes from a place of hey, like I've you've been attacking me, you know, and my rights and my ability to exist as a queer person, as a woman, as a bigger bodied person, as someone with HIV, whatever it is, and it's tough to have compassion, to kind of speak, to speak, you know, to respond in a way without it being like, Well, fuck you. You said, Fuck me. Like, again, it just kind of builds and further isolates. Yeah, and I understand why there's a self righteousness, and again, it's coming from a place of severe frustration, from a place of being discriminated against. It's like, like, all that self righteousness and then anger. All of it is valid, and I'm not trying to take away from that, but it's just hasn't been productive,

Adam

yeah, yeah, yeah. You're just saying, like, look at the evidence.

Zachary

Yeah, it hasn't worked, right? Like, we're still here and has absolutely not worked. So we need a different

Adam

approach, and it's interesting to make the connections between that when we're talking about, specifically about sex and sex positivity. I. And the bigger, broader theme of, like, liberal politics in the USA, yeah. Can you make connections? Oh, absolutely.

Zachary

I think there is a a lot of people, yeah, like, Trump lost the popular vote too. You know what? I mean. I'm sorry, Trump. Excuse me, Trump won the popular vote too. Sorry, Trump. Yeah, I'm like, no sorry. Trump won the popular vote along with the electoral college. And you know it's like when you see the information of a lot of times, why people want Republican it is this idea that liberals are self righteous, that we are condescending, that we are very much call out versus call in. We think we're right about everything, and like, in a way that is very off putting, that has, like, you know, and I think we, we did see that as a response to this, yeah. So, like, yes, it's not just in the sex positive sphere. I think it's a larger like, you know, sex positivity, like, it's, it's not just about sex you know what? I mean, this is about breaking down the patriarchy. This is about breaking down gender roles. It's about female sexual autonomy. It's about, you know, it's so it's about abortion, it's about LGBT rights, it's about mental health. There's so much more to it than just like, we're not just advocating for, like, oh, I have sex for this. Like, no, that this is this pleasure revolution is pertinent in so many different aspects that seemingly extend beyond sex. So that's it makes sense that we would see it in these other spheres that are actually relating right?

Adam

And if the left in the USA does get its act together and start to develop and articulate a new vision with a new tone to it. Yeah, Mystic or pessimistic that conversations about sex will be a part of that, um,

Zachary

I mean that first of that's pre that's assuming that the left is going to get their act together. Which I experiment, yeah, which I think many of us are very frustrated, myself included, by the fact that the left has has not repeatedly, but I think assuming they do start to get their act together. Yes, I don't see how sex cannot get like given everything that it touches, right? I don't see how it can't not be part of this conversation, right?

Adam

And I mean, I understand, agree with you about that like it's I too agree with you. I'm just wondering whether it is enough of a if enough people see it as enough of a priority and connected enough in a way that you've articulated it is to be a part of that, or whether it's like, seen as like, too much of a luxury or too much of a divisive issue, in order to like, be a part of the new left vision, that needs to be a unifying thing. You know, I don't know.

Zachary

Again, I don't think that's going to get together. In any aspect, okay, right? So, so, so, therefore, therefore, I don't think they're gonna get this included in a way either, because I don't think they're gonna even gonna be doing the rest of it. But in an ideal world, yes, it would be, but, I think, but I think, to what you're saying, yes, that, like, there is an additional layer of this is a taboo topic, on top of other things that aren't considered as taboo, and therefore you're able to discuss it. So there is an additional layer of it, and again, morals that you know are associated with it that add another challenge to get the conversation going about this. Yeah, so it would be an additional layer that they would have to work through,

Adam

right? And I'm just thinking how, like, I don't really see, I guess I'm talking specifically about the UK, where I am. So I'm asking you, as my US correspondent here, whether this is also true, that, like, I don't see a kind of coherent, like sex politics, like a caucus who were, like, specifically organized and lobbying around sex and sexual freedom. It's obviously touches on all these other things, like you've said, like, it's, it's is about health care and it is about these other things. But I don't see, like, in a way that they in the way that in the 1970s there was a clear sexual politics, and there was a caucus with groups. You know,

Zachary

I'm not saying it either. And again, I think, like, people are very afraid to discuss it. You know, apps don't want necessarily discuss it in a way, because they're afraid they're gonna get their money processors, like, revoked, and I'm not gonna be able to get money, you know what? I mean, like, so there's, like, a very financial concern, where, if we delve into this realm, like, we're not going to be able to make money, whatever it is, yeah, but yeah, I feel like we don't have it. And we're also seeing a even among, like, you know, Gen Z. I'm sure you've read and seen these articles for Gen Z, Gen Alpha. It's like, Hey, we're. Not having sex. We're not We're not enjoying it. And also the pieces I've seen kind of discussing it almost feel like miss the point where I feel like they have like you're seeing this in, I think elements of the, I think in some ways, the sex positive movement, like overstated their claims. You know what I mean, and we're very afraid to address very valid concerns within it, because, you know, if you address a valid concern, people then don't listen to your whole message against side cast. So we pretended things weren't like happening. But like, you know, I see these articles, so I'm reading them. It's like, it's not that these kids are like, sex negative, but it's that they were promised the sex positive, like, like, there are promise, you know, we're talking about one of the big things with sex positivity in the way they read it was, hey, we're allowed to have casual sex without shame. And it's like, that's true. You're allowed to have casual sex without shame. So they start having casual sex, and especially, you know, these women, if you're a straight woman, you're like, Oh, the guy kind of treats me like shit. He comes. Doesn't care about my pleasure. He does not text me back. I'm feeling used, and I'm feeling kind of ripped off by this. I was promised this, and so the issue is not and then they're like, Okay, I don't want to have sex anymore. And the answer is, it's not that you don't have sex anymore. You don't want to have shitty sex anymore. You don't have sex that leaves you feeling used, that leaves you feeling like shit. And so then our response is like, oh, no, a casual sex is good. It's great. You can have it's like, no, if you feel like shit afterwards, because these people are treating like shit. So it's like, okay, we messed up in the messaging casual sex. There's nothing wrong with it. You can do it without shame. You shouldn't feel worried about being a slut. That's true. Also acknowledging a lot of casual sex can leave you feeling used and shitty, and we still haven't addressed that. So how do we have casual sex in which that people are treating each other with respect, that people are prioritizing both of these people's pleasures, not just their own, that sex isn't over just because the guy came like, we're not addressing those issues. We just kept on being like, no. Casual sex is fine. We don't know why you're not liking it. It's like, no, they have very valid reasons, and we're not actually speaking to these reasons. And then, yeah, that's where, again, okay, casual sex sucked, so the sex positivity movement sucks. That's like, Well, no, the sex positivity movement doesn't sucks, but yeah, they feel like they were sold a lie, and we're not actually addressing the right issues here.

Adam

That's so true. I mean, I feel like just on the generational point, if, if that is, what is going on with the Gen Z and Gen Alpha people, not much

Zachary

hypothesis. Take it with a grain of salt.

Adam

Yeah, I don't know. I'm thinking, I'm gonna have to take this away and think about it. So you've given me some homework, which is, is there a parallel there between that, what's going on for that generation and the thing that's going on for my generation around housing. Of like, you know, I was sold this idea by the older generation that, like, oh, you know, you can, yeah, like, you'll be able to like, like, live, including buying a house, buying a home, and living in the way that you want to live, like that's totally possible. And then now my generation like it's kind of not actually, and we're actually really angry with you for Miss selling us this idea, and it's actually harder than than you were made it out to be, and it's more complicated, and it's messier and all these things. And so I'll take that away whether I think that there is a parallel there between, yeah, my generation being sold the point about housing and the younger generation being Miss sold the idea about sex.

Zachary

You know, I think there are both are predicated on the same premise of, I was taught, I was sold a lie, uh, and, and also, when, when addressed, when you know Millennials are talking to boomers, or whatever it is, and we say, like, hey, it's different. They don't acknowledge it frustration. The same way, being like, No, you're just not trying hard enough. It's like, well, no, I like you would not be able to afford it either. And I feel like it's the same thing, potentially Gen Z calling out Millennials or the sex positive movement, and our response, instead of listening to their concerns, is to double down and that relate that way. It definitely relates. It's

Adam

so true. And that is a lesson for me, for sure. Because if I heard like the Gen Z or a Gen Alpha person saying this stuff about sex, my I know my impulse would be to be like, Oh, you need to just like, chill out. Yeah, exactly, you know, like, it's fine. You can have casual sex. It's fine. Like, it's not that I'm not aware of those other things that you mentioned. But like, my messaging to them is like, yeah, like, you can do this in you can chill out, which is the same as, like, an older person saying to me, like, chill out. You can buy a house. Exactly,

Zachary

literally. No, I cannot, like, that's fake news here.

Adam

Yeah, exactly. So I'll that's definitely some food for thought for me about speaking to the youngins. I guess I want to talk to you about STIs and because it's. Something that is there in boy slot in terms of how, which is kind of like core one of the core ideas behind why I started free sex was because I was thinking about, originally, I was going to do a podcast which was about st I was going to interviews just about STIs and how we can eradicate STIs and everything. And then a friend suggested to me, why don't you make it broader? And I think he had the right shout, but it means do come back to STIs quite a lot, and it's right there in Boyslut. Look where you're saying about antibiotics and about these kinds of things, and there's, there's been some criticism of the book on this basis, right of like,

Zachary

this is where I received the most like negative feedback, and it really upset that

Adam

you're cavalier about antibiotics. So why don't you just say very briefly, like, what you're saying about about STI Sure.

Zachary

So what I was saying was a lot of STI shaming, obviously, is rooted in negativity is rooted in this where, like, I believe that you should be allowed to decide the level of risk you want to take, where, like, especially we live in this era where it's like, we have prep for HIV. Most STIs can be treated with an antibiotic, like, no problem. And so, like you assuming that you are educated and know the risks you're allowed to be like, hey, but the fear for me was really not getting HIV. I'm now on PrEP. I'm getting tested repeatedly. Okay, if I want to not wear a condom, that's a risk that I'm allowed to make. Yeah. Now you have autonomy over your body, and again, you should be honest with your partners about how often you're tested, how often you're having unprotected sex. And people were like, oh, Zach's anti condom cavalier attitude. And I'm like, I'm not anti condom. That's not what I'm saying. But like, How come it is socially acceptable for us to, you know, give head and receive head without condoms, and you're not necessarily being shamed for that, but you can get oral gonorrhea and oral chlamydia versus if you have like, penetrative sex, Oh, that's terrible. That's the worst thing. And it was because, essentially, doctors realized that, hey, we're not gonna get people to wear condoms during oral sex. We're not gonna be able to do it. So we just decided that this risk was considered accessible, and we're afraid that if we push this, people are gonna be like, Well, fuck this. I'm not wearing condoms in the aspect, but it's still it STIs through this, but this is a risk that we have decided society is allowed to take. Yeah, and so again, you should be getting tested frequently, frequently. There's obviously also a difference between when you have a penis versus a vagina. When you have a penis, like getting an STI often, does it like? It really like, the symptoms are so mild and so limiting, versus actually is worse for vagina. So I understand not want to take this risk if you have it, but like, I believe, yeah, fundamentally, you should be allowed to decide the level of risk that you want to take during sex, especially when getting an STI I've gotten STIs and you just get a shot, you don't have sex for a week. And the worst part of it is not the antibiotics. The worst part is telling the partners and the shame that goes along with it, that's right. And if we also reduce the level of shame, like people are lying about how often they have protected sex, people are lying at how often they have protected sex, otherwise we would not have this huge, you know, number of STIs were millions in the US, you know, diagnosed a year. So again, this is another thing where it's like, hey, the messaging we've given of you have to wear a condom every single time. People are clearly not listening to it, yeah, like that has clearly not worked. So being like, Hey, you're allowed to take the level of risk you want to take, but I want you to be honest about it. I want you to be open about it. I want you to be getting tested frequently so you're not spreading STIs cavalierly. Is actually going to end up decreasing the number of STIs in the end. You know what I mean. So we have to remove the shame. But I was, yeah, people really misunderstood, and they thought I was I'm like, I'm not anti condom. I am trying to advocate for your sexual autonomy and the choice that you're allowed to have in doing it, and this is different than a douche bag guy being like, Oh, I can't come with a condom, and being manipulative and trying to get someone to not wear a con, no, if someone wants to wear condoms, yes, obviously you should. That is what you should do. You do not question them, you don't argue with them. You not guilt them. But people really misunderstood the point of this chapter in a way where I remember, like, I reread it after receiving these like comments being like, did I just miss the mark? And it's like, yeah, no. But people, I think, were so headstrong in this one way, they couldn't even be open to the messaging.

Adam

So how did it feel as a writer to have that experience of being misread?

Zachary

Like, I mean, it's, it's frustrating, of course, you know what I mean, where you thought you're clear in your messaging, you thought you have a point here and but there's, like, it's also, I think, a valuable lesson, you know, in that, like, your work is going to be interpreted however it's going to be interpreted. And you can't necessarily. Really control that, and you do the best that you can. I've since been on so many podcasts to kind of re emphasize what it is that I'm claiming, still standing by what I believe in, and I still do believe in this. But, yeah, but it's frustrating. And there's some times where I get, like, nervous, where I do something on my Instagram called, like, slutty Sundays, which is every Sunday, people share sex stories, like, wild, kinky, raw G sex stories and like, anonymously, I, like, you know, share their stories and kind of provide funny feedback and commentary on it, yeah, but like, I'll receive some messages of being like, hey, Zach, I did. G passed out. Took 30 loads. Like, I hope you're proud of me. How hot was that? And I'm like, I'm like, Oh, that's not what I was advocating for. I wasn't advocating for mindless sex. I wasn't advocating for sex that, you know, like, is like, that didn't seem like this is coming from a healthy place that doesn't seem like this is coming from a pleasurable place that's didn't come from like, you know, and it's a tough balance, where I'm trying to not be sex negative, but at the same time I'm like, Oh, I I hope I wasn't advocating. I hope that wasn't my messaging. And that was the takeaway. It's still, I want you to be thoughtful, even if it's casual enough, drugs are involved. I want you to be thoughtful. I want to make sure this is coming from a healthy place, from a punchable place. And that does not sound like this is coming from a healthy place and coming from a sex positive place. It hurts me. I'm like shit like, I hope I'm like that. That's not that's never what I was advocating for. And if that was the takeaway that you received from it, like, okay, but, yeah, that's not it.

Adam

So having had that experience with that particular chapter, and having this bigger idea about, how do we get to a world of free sex, which requires really, really good messaging and tone and everything, if you were to not redo anything in that chapter. But if you were to write or make some work a new which was with the same point that you want to make, because, as you've said, you still have that point, what would you do?

Zachary

I think one thing that got messed up with this is I realized, again, I still wrote this chapter with levity. I still wrote this chapter with humor. And I think this was a situation where, actually maybe I shouldn't have and I think that because I wrote it trying to be cheeky and humorous, people thought I wasn't taking this seriously interesting, okay, and, and that was also the feedback where just like, oh, he was like, snarky when discussing this, and I thought, like, Oh, I thought I'd like, and again, and for the rest of the book, I think that was good. And having this tone and style did help people, or did make it more digestible and made it less threatening to read this. But this was a situation where, oh, because it was a serious conversation and it seems like I'm not taking this seriously, that was also one of the issues I saw when people would be mad at me. Would be like, Oh, Zach is not taking this seriously. But it's like, just because I have humor and I'm trying to make this album more a little bit light hearted, doesn't mean I'm not taking it seriously. So I think that was one a situation where it actually did backfire in

Adam

the end, interesting. So you would maybe tackle that subject with a different, yeah,

Zachary

a little bit more seriously than or again, it's not that wasn't serious, but a little bit more less humor to show that I'm not trying to make light of this. That wasn't what my intent was.

Adam

That's so interesting, and it's just something that we learn and evolve, isn't it

Zachary

as Yeah, I couldn't have guessed that before, yeah, doing it. You know what? I mean, like that, that wasn't Yeah. And,

Adam

I mean, for what it's worth, also, you know, there are some amazing responses to the book, as well as people. I mean, first of all, it's great when people engage with you and argue with you. And, yeah, that's a good sign. That's a good sign of mine. It's nice to know that you're like starting a conversation, as they say, Yeah, publishing industry, so that's good anyway. But then also, I read one comment on on Goodreads about Boyslut, which was I was covered in goosebumps with tears streaming down my face. That was just chapter one. This is, like, a five star review.

Zachary

Wow. Also, the thing is, because I have so many five star reviews, I also have so many ones that, you know what I mean, so it's just, like, I just don't look at good reads because, like, you

Adam

can't like a good read

Zachary

Amazon and you know, it's any book that has, you know, enough reads, you know, you get positive and negative evidence. This book is polarizing. I understand, like, there's a lot here, so it's nice, yeah, it's nice to hear because I don't see the good along with the bad. So like, but there's so much good, there's so much positive people loving it. So I love, I love hearing that. So thank you. I wouldn't have seen it otherwise.

Adam

Oh, good. I was I'm glad to provide to you. Okay, well, I don't think I have anything else to ask you. We want to wind up. Is there anything else that you want to add into this world of free sex with better messaging and better tone?

Zachary

No, again, like, I just think coming from a place of love and understanding and compassion, as corny as it sounds, is gonna be, is gonna be the future. So,

Adam

yeah, yeah, love and compassion. Yeah, I love that. Okay. Well, thank you, Zach, this has been a really great fun conversation with seriousness and levity as well.

Zachary

Yeah, thank you for having me.

—

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode!

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX - the idea or this podcast!

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x

Listen to this episode on your podcast player of choice.

Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith.

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex?

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome.

Let’s go!

—

What if we didn’t need to work to earn money?

My guest in this episode is Eva Oh, a dominatrix who wants everyone to have their basic needs financially covered. This was such a philosophical conversation, and I loved it! Eva argues that we can build a world of free sex if we adopt a universal basic income — people would have more time to investigate their own sexuality, instead of having to work so hard just to cover their basic needs. She shared stories from her own life, including how her own fearlessness has helped her to grow a hugely successful career as a dominatrix.

We don’t talk enough about how money (or lack of) holds us back from the sex that we want, so I’m grateful to Eva for bringing this issue onto the podcast. It sounds like a heavy topic, but in Eva’s hands it’s also fun and mind-expanding. Let me know what you think!

Adam

Eva Oh. Welcome to Free Sex. Thank you for having me. It is such a pleasure to meet you because you your world crosses over with mine quite a lot, and this is the first time I've had the chance to speak to you. So I'm really curious to have this conversation. Wait to see where it goes. Shall we start? Tell me, how would you build a world where we can have the sex that we want?

Eva

Well, it helps that I'm in the world. But thinking about this question, I feel like it's two things that sound separate, but are interlinked and in no particular order, I would say that it is a fearlessness at a self investigation. Okay, as well as universal basic income, right?

Adam

Okay, I love, I love your claim that these are sort of separate and interconnected. And I think we're gonna get into that. Wow. Okay, two big ideas. Can we start with the fearless self investigation. Maybe define the parameters of that. What do you mean there?

Eva

I have been very lucky that I've always had a curiosity and a lack of fear around questioning myself and the parts around me, and I feel like that's given me the opportunity to be where I am today, and a lot of people who see where I am have brought up this point, and so it's not something that I've necessarily thought about. I've been very lucky to have it, but it seems to be a sticking point for what stops people from taking that step, whereas they see me having lived this life, yeah, and they believe that it's a result of that. And I think on some thought, it does have some merit. And I think it's about understanding. I think I've always seen myself as very small, okay, grand scheme of existence and almost insignificant. And I think that that has given me the ability to play, to be fearless, to see what could be, to completely collapse and be fine.

Adam

I like that idea of being very small, because we all just, like, a little dust of, yeah, something in the universe, right? So do you mean that, like, well, I might as well try this thing or that thing, because I'm not gonna unbalance the universe by doing that. I it doesn't really matter.

Eva

I've just been going for it, right? Okay, fearlessness embodied in some ways. And

Adam

actually, there's kind of two aspects to it, because there's, there's the aspect that's related to the work that you do and, like, the need that you had to, like, explore, explore sex and all the different aspects of it and then find your way in the world as a worker. But then there's also the people who might be your clients, and the fearlessness that they have to have to explore themselves, to investigate their own sex lives as well. So what do you think of the similarities and differences between those two modes, whether you're the worker or the client?

Eva

I feel like I've because I'm so driven by that freedom, yeah. And I really love being within that expansiveness, yeah, of the ability of what life could be, yeah. And when you come in contact with people in your whole job as a... coming in contact with people, you start to see the upper limits of where they are in terms of being able to access that sense of freedom, yeah. And so you start to learn how to trick them, okay,

Adam

wow, to bring them over, to bring them over, yeah,

Eva

yeah. Because I love to be in that space, and I want them to join me, and I want to play in that space. Can you give me time I figured out little ways? Yeah.

Adam

Can you give me an example of a little way? Oh,

Eva

yeah. So it's quite a confronting way, and this used to be my major mode. Now I have a few other ways, because that is quite terrifying, but it's, I think, bringing people into a present moment by making them hyper aware of the things that I'm noticing to the point where it breaks down them being self conscious because they just can't keep up with what I'm noticing. So I just point out everything that they're that they're doing, that they're saying, that they're feeling that okay, the way that they're looking a little bit what like, how they might have been triggered. I kind of noticed everything, and I feed it right back to them, wow. Brings them into a present moment and like, yeah, until they just either break and hate you or they surrender, yeah? And it's like, here we go.

Adam

Oh, wow. I mean, that is very intimidating, yeah. If someone's doing that to you, it's kind of like the sort of like extreme version of therapy or something, you know, where it's reflecting back and, you know, sex and sex work can Yeah, but

Eva

it's sexy. So, you know, people are like, in a head space where they're they're turned on, maybe. So they're not necessarily living in their modes, their everyday modes, as much. They're kind of more receptive sometimes when this Yeah, that they're desiring this person is just grabbing them,

Adam

yes, in all the ways. Wow. And you said that you've developed a couple of other, more, newer techniques.

Eva

Techniques, yeah, they're softer, they're slower, okay, they're more about trust and space, okay, yeah, yeah, and ease, right? And it takes a lot longer. But it's also less destructive, because it can be very dangerous, the way that I described before. What

Adam

do you think people are afraid of?

Eva

Everything they're told to be existing? I think that it can be a very overwhelming experience, which is the joy of it also, yeah, but yeah, yeah. I think if you're, if you're if you're taught that maybe certain levels of sensation are too much, or if you start to learn that anxieties are not something to be friendly with. Or, you know, it's just like so many possibilities that you could be curious about, but you're taught, no, yeah. I think that creates this anxiety, extra anxiety, and this tension that people are not experiencing the fullness of life

Adam

with, yeah, and that is like has specific characteristics when it comes to sex. I think

Eva

the fear, yeah,

Adam

of like, what we've been told, how we've been how we've been taught to behave,

Eva

yeah, and it's all been so subtle, so there's also so much subtext and so much lack of clarity. It's like, yes, we've been told a certain way. But even within that, we're still a lot of people make up extra ways fulfilling this subtext. Yeah,

Adam

because I'm thinking that your big topic here is fearlessness at self investigation. That's what we need as a society to to build a world of free sex and how that's not a like a structural thing, a concrete thing. We are going to talk about universal basic income and economics and money, and these are all like kind of structural and also concrete things, whereas a fearlessness that self investigation is something that's more both very social and cultural, but also very deeply personal at the same time. And it's time. And it's a, it's, it's all very intangible.

Eva

I think they're both multi layered, okay, I think that I genuinely believe they're very interconnected. Yeah, maybe get to that.

Adam

Yeah, yeah. Well, let's get to that. Let's do it. Let's, let's. Why do you think those are two connected?

Eva

I see all right. So say there was a space where we had our base needs covered, where we didn't have to strive to, yeah, to house ourselves and the people we care about, where we didn't have to torture ourselves to make sure. Everybody had enough to eat and access to opportunity. If all of those things were settled, then the space for investigation can open up, and it can have a period of existential crisis, but it can also give us space to find pathways that could lead to peace with and curiosity and creativity outside. And if it's more widespread, then it's like pathways that are talked about could be shared more easily, but at the same time, to get to the point where we care about everyone's base needs, it requires a look in onto why that might be and what fairness is and what grade is, and that is an investigation also. Yeah, exactly like they kind of go hand in hand,

Adam

I see. And so can you describe, for those who don't know very much about universal basic income, what it is maybe I don't know either context, because I think, yeah, have a go, have a proper definition. Well, I don't know. I mean, I do go on, yeah, my understanding,

Eva

it's like a very easy, basic way to, let's just communicate it quickly, yeah, would be a system where everyone maybe gets a certain amount of resource, be it income money, however, so that their basic needs are tended to. And so therefore anything on top of that would be items that didn't need to satisfy our everyday

Adam

necessities. So I guess whatever the cost of living is correct meaning, like rent and food and something like that, that if that's covered automatically, you don't have to earn that by working or by inheriting that that that's covered. So then you can decide just to live at that level with your basic needs covered, and you don't need to spend your days trying to earn money. You can spend your days doing other things that you are just you're choosing to do. Or you can spend your days earning more money, if you want more money and more things. Yeah, I see Yeah. I'm so grateful that we're talking about UBI, universal basic income, because I've been thinking about it a lot in the lots of interviews that I've done on free sex where people say we need more of this, we need more of that, like we need, you know, more sex spaces, which we do inherently, or we need more free time, or we need more better laws and regulations, or sometimes fewer laws and regulations, depending on what it's about, but it's often harder to draw people out on talking about money and about the how money interferes with how we spend our time and how That interferes with our bodies and our sex lives, actually. So I'm really grateful that you've brought it up, either, maybe backtrack a bit,

Eva

no, but I'm just also kind of reiterating the ways that I have come to my own sense of freedom, right?

Adam

So actually, I was, well, maybe that's the answer. I was going to ask you. How did you arrive at this conclusion that one of the ways that we can all have the sex that we want is if we have a universal basic income? Where did that come from?

Eva

A lot of reading, a lot of questioning, a lot of thinking, a lot of having absolutely nothing and then having more than I ever could have imagined, yeah, yeah. And and recognizing the states within myself when those when that spectrum of have that yeah have not have happened to even myself, yeah, yeah. And so even though I came from a base level of quite a sense of contentment, just from the way that I think I was raised, yeah, even so, there were anxieties about, you know, at one point I was alone when I was 15 and I was working three jobs just to have somewhere to stay. And I really loved the freedom, but it was a how, like a hustle, and I did not think about my mental well being or like this. But once I had in like, maybe five figures in the in the bank account, which had never happened to me before, like 20 days or whatever, I gave myself room to think about, oh, maybe I will do that meditation that I thought that I would do, yeah. Maybe I will think about what a therapist is all about, yeah. And it's just like, why does that have to be a luxury purchase? Yeah? Doesn't seem like the right way around, yeah. And so, I guess just life and different. States of being and exposure to concepts and philosophies. It's just been very helpful. And just somewhere

Adam

as as you've moved through the different I don't know how to put this kind of politely, but as you've moved through these different statuses in your own life, and you said economics, yes, like, strata, I don't know, but yeah, basically, as you've and, you know, and as you've earned more money, as you said, like, and you're able to have more how has that changed? How much time you have to think about these things and to do that reading that you mentioned is, is there, is there? Has there been a kind of snowball effect of your ability to do those things because you've had your basic needs, COVID and more?

Eva

Yeah? So it's been a, it hasn't been linear, right?

Adam

Yeah, that's freelance work for you. Yeah? And

Eva

also, like, I've moved between countries, economies, however, and I think the large bulk of my earlier education came when I was 19 and 20 and living in China, where the cost of living then, like 20 years ago, was much lower, basically. And so I had a lot of time to consume a lot of information. Also, I was hungry, because I was only just starting to learn how to speak Chinese, and I wanted English information. And so I think I've subscribed to everything on what back then was a Google Reader, which is like an RSS

Adam

feed. Oh god, I remember Google Reader. Yeah, it

Eva

was great. Oh, my God. Hundreds and hundreds of articles a day, and that would lead me down pathways. And I ended up becoming a culture and innovation writer, yeah, for China, for different journals around the world. And that also, it's just, I guess I've always been hungry for understanding and and why has that been? I think my family have always asked questions. They're always asking, oh, but why is that? How could that be? And so it's just very automatic be satisfied by that way of thinking. And I know that there I don't have an end point that I'm not an end point, yeah, basically,

Adam

yeah, you're not. Yeah, that's the thing about finding stuff out and reading is that you're not an empty vessel that will be full one day like but that's interesting. So you've always had that drive to find out, that fearlessness to self investigate, but also that drive to find out more and more information. Because I'm thinking about the fact that for a lot of people, their bodies, and especially their sex and their sex lives is like, is almost its own luxury for some people in terms of the time. So there might be literally things to do with money, like, Well, I I really, really love rubber, but I can't afford that suit or to go to that space, but also it might be something to do with time, like I literally can't afford to like the time to explore my sex life properly, even if I were fearless. Whereas I think that, I mean, it's great that you've had that, that you've had that drive to continue to explore anyway, but I guess is what you're saying, that if we had our basic economic needs met, that that would buy people a lot more time. Those are the people. Yeah. And, I

Eva

mean, I It's impossible in England, right? Unless you're born into something, yeah, perhaps, I think it's really very difficult, but I've, I grew up in Southeast Asia, yeah? And I was middle class, and there's more room for that, yeah? Well, we were also working class at some point, so there was also a differentiator that, yeah, could understand, which is good, yeah? And then I've also moved to, I've understood it's hard to move between countries, but I've done it since I was young, yeah, so I know that it's possible. And so sometimes when I'm I'm not earning very much, I'm like, I'm just gonna move to somewhere where it's cheaper to live. Yeah, I'm gonna fly and I'm gonna work in other markets, and that's how I'm gonna do it. And I've done that most of my life. Now I'm very daring, and now I'm in, like, London, yeah,

Adam

yeah,

Eva

yeah. But so like, I know what the different experiences could be. I've bought myself time by taking risk, by moving to places which didn't have as much economic stability as the markets I could work in. So I have, like, an international, I guess, ability, yeah, which has been helpful in buying me time and headspace.

Adam

Yes, I see Yeah. So in a way like that, you've had this kind of experience through your work, and although not everyone can do that or wants to do that, what you're saying is, if everyone had a UBI, if everyone. Had a universal basic income, they would be able to have something of the experience that you've been having, which gives them that space and that freedom to investigate sexually,

Eva

I think so. And also, if we did have that, there would be more people having done that, and there would be more information and pathways thinking that would just be more normal, yes, yeah. So it would be like, Man at fault. Is that a word? Yeah. What do you sort of expand on itself?

Adam

What like? Let's just do this thought experiment that everyone you know, we're both living in England, both in London. Let's do the thought experiment of what it would be like if everyone had a Basic Income salary covering what they need for their rent and their food, and I don't know whatever else it would cover, the heating bill. It's a fucking cold day today, and my flight is 200 years old, so I'm speaking to from under a blanket anyway, yeah, so let's say we've got all of that covered. Okay, like, how do you think life in England or life in London would be different with if everyone had that in terms of, and I specifically asking about sex, how do you think our sex lives would be different in that situation? Oh, I

Eva

think it depends how far in we would be with having satisfied that.

Adam

Oh, okay, well, let's do stage one, then, like within the first year. What's gonna happen? Chaos. Tell me more. Is it giving? What is it giving? 28 days later, back in earlier, existential crisis? Yeah,

Eva

it's scary, existential crisis. Okay, when I first moved to Australia after living in Asia for most of my life, I found out about depression, medication for it, and I had never heard of it before, and I wasn't young, young, you know? And it was surprising, and I realized, oh, it's because people are not like distracted by the struggle, and they have time to think about themselves. And so there's this initial stage of, okay, so what? What is meaning? Yeah, and, and so I think that that would be a really big, fat

Adam

stage. Do you think What? What? What do you think that that existential crisis stage of the new era would do to our sex lives? Think people are gonna have more sex or less sex, or better sex or worse sex, or messy sex, or what I

Eva

feel like, everybody reacts differently. Yeah. People would be like, end of the world, sex, yes, I want to go to those parties. Yeah, other people would probably just shut down, you know, and the whole range in between. I think it would have to be not just let, let us satisfy this economically, but it would also have to be like a mental health sort of, yeah, bringing people along for a ride.

Adam

But then if we've all got more money or basic needs covered, and what the money that we're earning is can be spent on other things, then it's Boon time for therapists, because suddenly we can all afford them. Yeah,

Eva

yeah. And coaches and the things that we do currently see, yeah, yeah. And maybe more community based things might have more time and space.

Adam

So do you think that would usher in a second era after the chaos era? And what would the second era be? Maybe Tantra. Oh, okay, say more. Say more about why that would have a lot

Eva

of, like, heightened attempts at infusing meaning into sexuality. Here's the extreme, yeah, let's make all the noises and the eye gazing and the I don't know, I don't know, but, or some sort of version of, like, a lot of, in my opinion, dressing and artifice not necessarily a bad thing. I do work with cages and latex. So you know, artifice is not something I'm unfamiliar with, yes, but I think a great investment in attempts for meaning probably would also happen, yeah,

Adam

yeah, yeah. That's interesting. So, more spiritual approach, more philosophical approach, yeah. Also I wonder, when you said Tantra, it made me think as well of the possibility that you could just do entire sessions for like several days. Because if you don't have to go to work, you can really build something, yeah, I can finally keep

Eva

somebody in the dungeon for three days. Yeah, more? Was it three years?

Adam

Exactly. Yeah. Finally. Is there a third stage? Or do you think we're in the tantra stage for a long time? This

Eva

is one thing that I have about humanity, too. I mean, I am no philosophy. Of her or whatever. It's just me with spare time on bus rides, you know, so, like, don't take anything that I'm saying is the way that it's going to be or anything. It's just my insides of my brain. Yes, one who booked me, I did, but, um, I kind of think that I I think as long as humans exist, there's always going to be some going between, like extremes or dichotomies. I don't know if they know how to get themselves

Adam

out of that, right? Yeah, yeah. So even

Eva

if it becomes smaller and more nuanced and shorter to each other. Yeah, I think there's always going to be sort of, you know, never really a stability. And also that would be kind of like, yes, like health, healthy and good for us in many ways, but also in some ways, much less interesting. And

Adam

what would a universal basic income that's given to everybody do for the sex industry and sex workers.

Eva

I don't know. Has somebody done that study? I want to read it. Oh, what would happen? I like So people always ask me, Are you scared of technology or AI or whatever, sex dolls or brothels, like coming up and taking your job. And I've always had the sense that the unpredictability of a human, yeah, will eventually just become more and more of a premium. Yeah. I think if people know how to sort of harness that. That said you can also program randomness into whatever. But I think to get to that point, we're a while away, yes, so I don't know, I kind of feel like there's going to be people who can understand the market and market it to become a luxury product, yeah, to just cater. Who knows? Because that's

Adam

one of the things that people who are against a universal basic income say, isn't it, that it's it's anti competitive, that it's not good for the kind of economy that we live in, because you're just giving money to people for free, just so that they can exist. And that means that it's like it kind of undermines the entrepreneurialism and the drive and the competitiveness that the modern economy, like requires as it's kind of petrol. And so by giving money away, you're sort of, yeah, making us all lazy, and therefore we won't give services in enough, or buy services enough, you don't buy that. Oh, I

Eva

think everybody reacts very differently. I think in our current state, there are people who have very little, who don't have the interest or the tools to explore what entrepreneurship means, and have a legacy of however many generations of wealth who are making sure that they hire the minds that are, yeah, really ambitious in order to make sure that they remain in in positions of extreme greed. Yeah? So it's, it's like, it's hard to say. I don't think one thing will happen to, uh, two different people, you know, so, yeah, what's going to happen? People who have modeled these things would know better? Yeah. And I think for me, it's more about what you know, the Maslow Hierarchy of Needs sort of concept, and what that could inspire, and what is necessary for that to be something that people are considering and caring about. I think that those are probably more the fundamentals of what I think can help us achieve a freedom, yeah, rather than miss maybe those things that I mentioned specifically itself, yeah,

Adam

yeah. What responses have you had from other people, friends or anyone, when you've talked about this idea with them.

Eva

I think maybe I talked about the UBI thing when I was younger, yeah, because I was more around vanilla folk, okay, yeah, and, and so maybe individual freedom and fearlessness was not as much of a conversation. Yeah, yeah. Also, I guess times have changed, and then now, because I'm more in sex worker group, like spheres and people who are engaging with themselves like questions of fearlessness is made. Be more. People are less scared of having Yeah, yeah, and notice it more. And so that becomes something that's more of a topic. Also, like, I have this weird thing, right? It's like social media. I represent this iconography, like an icon for representing this image of this woman who is acting a certain way, representing certain things. And so I guess that becomes my conversation all the time, just because people are seeing me as this thing. And then you've got to have feedback to it. And so you don't the economists and you know, the philosophers get certain conversations, and then the dominant women get another one, so I don't get the opportunity as much.

Adam

I think, right? Yeah, don't you make your own opportunities, though. I mean, I That's my observation of you. Say more about that and how you could, you not do that in order to have a different kind of or more expensive platform, if you wanted,

Eva

yeah, people have said, start a philosophy podcast, yes.

Adam

Well, here we go. This is episode one of your philosophy podcast.

Eva

I do inject. I have talked about universal basic income a few times on my podcast, yeah, yeah. And, but in like face, that's also a funny thing. It's like, on one hand, you add these conversations into into the Zeitgeist and through your media contributions or whatever, and then people start to put you in this weird leadership position, yeah. And then they'll invite you to talk on panels or whatever, but not to have a conversation with you, okay, kind of put you in a space and and like we can chat with my friends, and I'm probably not even really thinking about it, because things are moving so fast, and however, I feel very satisfied and satiated. But you know when, when people start to put you in when you're a little bit too visible, people start seeing you as this thing to idolize and and when I interact with them, it's just so short lived. Yeah, it's like, Hi, oh, are you Eva? Oh, and you really did this thing for me. And then I've got to be grateful and give them like, a kind moment. And then we all move on with our lives, but it's right. And sometimes I'm like, yeah, what did you like about that? And they're completely taken aback, yeah, not the conversation that they were hoping to have. And yeah,

Adam

I want something out of this too. Yeah, they they just wanted to, kind of like broadcast something back to you and then leave. Yeah, yeah,

Eva

yeah. And I'm like, No, give me more. Yeah. So, so, yes, yes, maybe I guess right now I'm in a position where I can put things out on platforms, yeah, in my personal time, I probably just spend more time alone, right? Which

Adam

is fine, yeah, which is fine. But actually, you mentioned earlier the word community, and I wanted to develop that a little bit more. And you've also there talked about being a sort of an icon and a symbol and like a person that has a platform and so and you've built communities across borders, you've done events and projects across borders. So there is this sense of building something collaboratively together and having creating spaces for sex or conversations or both, all at the same time, or various things like that. So I'm wondering, what is the role of the fearlessness in that kind of community building, and what is, what could be the role of a universal basic income in that?

Eva

So I guess the thing is, with the fearlessness, when you have grown up with it, you don't think about it, okay, yeah, yeah. It just is what it is. And therefore it all it does is give me opportunity and ways to find solutions, maybe faster than somebody,

Adam

yeah, yeah, yeah,

Eva

yeah. So I think maybe that's the biggest thing. It gives me more room. And

Adam

what about if everyone else had that same amount of fearlessness, if we're talking about this free sex world that we want, where everyone has that the same fearlessness that you have?

Eva

Yeah? Okay, so I'm not sure. I've really thought about it on like, a super big level, but I've thought, I've see it in smaller interactions, like when people come up to me and they'll say that, Oh, I I really thought this thing of you, and actually you're that thing. Or I was really scared of of doing this thing, and then I heard you, or I was really scared of you. And. Yeah. And I think it just it, it takes up a lot of time and energy, yeah, yeah. When, when people are hesitant or are scared, yeah. And it takes up time and energy that I would be using to make shit, yeah, yeah, whereas they've used it on their internal process. And I'm not saying that one is wrong or the other, I'm just saying that that's what I see happen, yes, like, on a one to one basis, yeah, and I guess it's just that, but society fold,

Adam

yeah, yeah, bigger.

Eva

And when it comes to universal basic income on my Yeah, I always, I have, I have a little bit of a mindset where I'll make it work. And

Eva

so, yeah, whether it's something that costs, like no money at all, yeah, I can always gather people. I can sit down and throw out a podcast and just edit it badly myself. Yeah, that's that, like, sure, I was in a studio because I didn't understand that I could just record it on my phone, which is what I do now, which is, yeah, nice, but, you know, yes, but I just edited it myself, which, which made it pretty shitty the first couple of seasons, yeah, but my word got out there and it meant something, yeah, it didn't cost me anything but my time, yes,

Adam

yeah, yeah, so, and that is a really great example of a community, like, like, basically a community project. You know, it's for the community. It's not, it's not as if you're just saying, This is my soapbox. This is my, you know, play. This is my megaphone. It's like, the thing about podcasts is that they are a conversation even between you and the listener, just because of the form. And I'm wondering whether we would see, whether you think that we'd see more things like podcasts or content, let's call it across all the different platforms, from more people, if everyone managed to have the time, but then we don't have a shortage of it at the moment. So I don't know, just wondering. You know, with that, would we all be making more content like that, and having you

Eva

think like do you think people would be more hungry for community or less.

Adam

I think we would. I think our I think we would be just as hungry as we are now, but we would be able to satisfy it in a more fulfilling way. Obviously, my bias, my declaration here is that I'm in favor of universal basic income, too, but I think that, for example, one of the things that it the way that it would change how we think about community, is that at the minute, most people, adults, working adults, spend the biggest number of their like Daily Good Energy Power hours working with people that they wouldn't choose to be around. So that amount of hours, you know, if you say to someone, you've got 40 hours a week, what do you want to spend that time doing? I think most people don't say, I want to work with these, this bunch of colleagues in this particular business that I'm working in, like a lot of people are really happy in their work and that they would do that, but a lot of people would say, Well, I actually want to spend more of that time with my family or with my friends or with my network, or whatever it is. And so I think that that changes or in my my my local project, you know, like, whatever that local community project is, I don't know, like the garden, the local garden on the estate or something. So that's my thought about community and universal basic income is that, like it changes our priorities so that we can spend time more with the groups of people that we might choose to

Eva

there's probably ways that we can compare places that are closer to universal basic income versus not. But I guess for me, like a very obvious maybe parallel would be maybe the institution of the family, yeah, because maybe in, like, where I grew up, there's not really government support, housing, any of these things, yeah, like, health care, like, yeah, none of it. And so you are very reliant on your, like, social cohesion, yeah, whether that's your nuclear family, extended or neighbor or however, sort of network. And so those values look stronger and become more important in your psyche, yeah, in terms of what is important in a life, whereas when you when I've moved away from needing that and I could gain independence, yeah. And you can start to question, which parts of the that family are actually something that I want to be a part of, yes, and is it actually any good for me? What could be good about it? Do I have to create other meaning for it to be valuable? Yeah, and, but that's a process in itself. So therefore it comes back to the interior investigation Yes, I think like these things all kind of need to work together. Yeah, us together to keep understanding what value can be.

Adam

But that's but the family is a really great example, because you it sounds like you stepped away, stepped apart from the family, and then probably put some boundaries in there, or develop the boundaries there. I definitely did the same. And then you kind of create your own you start to build your own community. And somewhat that might be because of, like, where you're working, but it also might be like, who you're living with, or who your friends are, that kind of thing, you know, making your chosen family, and that's really important. But I think that income is a thing that keeps people in certain or income levels, like keeps people in certain family situations or living situations that they would not want to be in, and so and, and that has a go at

Eva

I've always prized my freedom, yeah, over being able to eat. Okay, so when I was 14, yeah, ran away because I hadn't lived with my family for a while. I moved between family members, because my mother was trying to earn for us, but it also created a divide, yeah? But, um, so I ran away when she came back and she married my now step dad, and I wasn't happy about it, yeah? And so they sent me off. And what ended up happening was I went to the boarding school, whatever. I don't know where they found the money, but they figured it out, yeah, to try to keep me safe or away or however, but I refuse to go back during the holidays, and refused. And they said, All right, well, we're not giving you your $200 a month. Who does not rush anyway. But to a kid, you're that's Yeah. Was necessary. It was what you were relying Yeah. And I thought, You know what? Fuck it. Okay. That's when I was on my own and living like on top of a pub. I don't know why they were renting a room to like, a 15 year old and working like three jobs and eating instant noodles. And it didn't matter, because I had my my independence, my Yes, yeah. And so I guess it depends, like, how what you value, yeah. And if you value, like that, certain standard of living over understanding who you are in the world, then that's just going to be your bit. Yeah, what

Adam

do you think it says about us that so many people say that they're sexually unsatisfied in their lives, that what do you think it says about the value that they place on freedom and sex?

Eva

Like a part of like an older part of me when I was younger would probably be like, I'd probably, denigrate them more than I would advertise with them. Yeah? Probably tell myself something like wilderness, like it's, it's the effort that they need to be, right? Yeah, yeah, and they're not getting, yeah, they're they're just not getting out what they're not putting in. Yeah, exactly the same time. Now I understand that there are systems at play that keep people there, yes, yeah. And, and they are in groups of people who are just feedbacking this, yeah, let's just stay in this position, yeah. And, so I know that it's like, like like, 5050, sometimes even 60 onto the society. Sometimes even more. And so I don't denigrate them anymore. Yeah, there is a part of me that's just, I want to just, like, push them, yeah, yeah, push them off the cliff, just, yeah,

Adam

yeah, to basically give them that fearlessness and say, like, Well, look, you know, you if you want to do something, you can do it, yeah. But, like you said, there are structural things around them. They're in their own cages, but we all are in different ways. I mean, you've been doing

Eva

this for a long time, like I started doing media interviews maybe six years ago, yeah, and I very quickly realized, okay, so when I first did the job, I avoided social situations for years, I didn't do what I did. I just didn't have the vocabulary for it. But like, through media, almost like media training, I started to understand there's a way to say something to make people feel like they get it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Or do that they empathize with you, yeah, before they start to understand a little bit more, yeah. So I think that I've been doing that more than just being like, well, you're lazy, yes, yeah. I've been like, I get what you're saying, and I'm gonna say it in this way that you're gonna sort of understand where I'm coming from, and you're going to see that in you, and then maybe we can get somewhere.

Adam

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that that's really powerful, and it's really powerful that you've been developing that muscle, yeah, and doing it amazingly, and making lots of work, that's this bigger conversation.

Eva

Yeah, it's nice to be able to add to life,

Adam

yeah. Well, I have it, yeah, yeah. And, and I think about that, you know, I'm, like, primarily a writer. And I think about that in when I'm writing something is like, how is it going to reach? Who is it going to reach, and how is it going to how do I reach into them, not just to say, not just to, like, megaphone at them, like, this is my thought or my idea or my experience, but like, how do you connect with a person on something that's trying to be universal? You know, you

Eva

bring value to the world and their experience? Yeah, yeah. Take away from it, because there's a lot of that already. Yeah.

Adam

But I think it's really important to talk about the structural things, which is what you're doing, this is what you're bringing up. You're talking about income, you're talking about class, you're talking about economics, you're talking about capitalism. I'm talking about housing all the fucking time. And like, it's, you know, it it's kind of like, I feel it's quite isolating and alienating in a way, to talk about these things in a way that we are doing now, because, first of all, it's quite complicated, so they're quite hard concepts to get across, but, and they're also quite hard concepts to receive when you are also trying to feed the baby and trying to get to bed and trying to get up in the morning and go to one of your jobs, you know, like, so it's like, it's really, it's difficult. I

Eva

think it's been a learning for me, also, that it's not going to be like, Oh, I get it, and now I can live this shit. It's right, like, I kind of understand the pathways that could work for us. I kind of understand what my freedom could look like me myself, yeah, and I know that not every day is going to look like that, and I know that even in a moment, I have to be many things at once, and it's just that's how it is. And I'm not going to beat myself up about it, and it's never going to be perfect, but yeah, Want to be aware, because I don't want more suffering for myself or the people.

Adam

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that might be where we conclude either, because it's quite dark, but also quite uplifting and positive, I think at the same time, which I which is the vibe that I'm getting from this conversation in general, it's kind of that's like a microcosm of this conversation, hope, there is hope. There is hope, okay, but it's life is fucking hard, yeah. Well, I I really appreciate you bringing these ideas onto the podcast, and I feel like we've just kind of scratched the surface with them, because they are such deep things, but they're super important. And I think just laying them down there, it's like this is a thing to think about when we're talking about building a world of free sex. Yes, it's important to say we need more sex spaces. That's absolutely crucial, in my opinion, but we've also got to have the talk about like income and class and life, how we live, how we live, yeah?

Eva

Because that is for how how we make our choices and how we experience potential creativity, which is yes,

Adam

yeah, there you go. Which is sex, exactly. Well. Thank you very much. Eva, great to speak to you.

—

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode!

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX - the idea or this podcast!

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x

Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith.

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex?

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome.

Let’s go!

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How can we flip the script on what sex and relationships can be?

My guest in this episode is Silva Neves, who is a psychosexual and relationships psychotherapist. Silva sees all sorts of clients with different challenges to do with sex and relationships, so he’s a fascinating person to talk to about free sex. His big idea is that we need to know ourselves without the influences of society.

That’s a hard task, of course! But Silva broke it down for me. We talked about the power of films and stories, the question of what’s ‘natural’ when it comes to sex and relationships, and even how to resist answering the question ‘So when are you going to get married?’

Adam

Silva Neves, welcome to Free Sex.

Silva

Thank you for inviting me.

Adam

It's so great to speak to I love speaking to people who have psycho at the beginning of their job title. It's always really, really interesting to me. Also, I should also say that I don't know if you're aware of this, but we are. We're here speaking. We're doing this interview on the day that one of my favorite musical artists, FKA Twigs, has just released her new album, which is called Eusexua, which is supposedly some kind of, like sexual concept album. So immediately, when we're done speaking, I'm going to go and listen to that. And fantastic. Enjoy that. So it's just fortuitous that we're doing this conversation on the on the on the day of you sexual silver. What does free sex mean to you. Let's get going.

Silva

Yeah, free sex, to me, is about knowing yourself sexually without all the influences of society.

Adam

Okay, wow. Okay, that is very, very short and succinct and clear. Let's get into that, because that's like a really big topic. Okay, so first of all, I think, tell me where you're coming from. Tell me about your practice, your clients, and why you have that particular insight. Yeah,

Silva

I'm a psychosexual and relationship psychotherapist, and it means I'm a psychotherapist who did a further specialist training in psychosexual and relationship therapy, and most of my clients that come to see me are because they struggle with their sex lives or they struggle with their relationship, often both, so that means they might have frequent conflict, or they've lost touch with each other, they have poor communication and and some people just think, you know, we love each other, but sex just doesn't work, and so we want some help with our sex lives.

Adam

I see, okay, so And is it, can you say a bit about the range of different types of people that come like maybe their sexualities, their their stages in life.

Silva

Yes, I see everyone across the board, heterosexual people, LGBTQ people, everything in between. I see cis gender people. I see non binary people. I see people of different ethnicities, different cultural backgrounds, from different countries, speaking different languages, okay, and so and the ages from as early as early 20s all the way up to 60s,

Adam

okay, wow. So you do have a pretty good broad spectrum of experiences that are like flowing through your work and your practice.

Silva

So yes, and I've been doing that for quite some time now, over, over 15, 10, 15, years.

Adam

okay, yeah, wow, God, you must have heard pretty much everything there is to hear about sex.

Silva

But I will say, I always say that. I would say I've heard it all, but now, and each time I say that, then I get surprised. So we never hear it all,

Adam

okay, okay. And well, that's really interesting. I would hope that, as we talk, that you can bring in the breadth and the wealth of these kinds of stories and these experiences, obviously not the details from specific people, but, but yeah, the different types of experiences and perspectives, I think would be really helpful, because you just said that your answer to making free sex possible is to know yourself without the influences of society. And we're all influenced in different ways, aren't we, and all those different types of people that you just mentioned you see, are under different kinds of influences. So maybe can you give me a bit of a buffet of influences that you're talking about there?

Silva

Yeah, I think it's basically a combination between very, very poor sex education that people receive to messages from parents, families and and also, then there's the social media that can have some really good information, but also a lot of myths. And so people are just really lost about figuring out the sexuality or the sex lives, or how they want to step into an active sex life. So then people just, often just try to go with grab some information out there, from what they've gathered along the way, but a lot of the time they don't have a clear map. It's quite in the dark. So then they make mistakes. And when they make mistakes, they feel shame and guilt and all sorts of feeling bruised and and then they take that with them and so and then it carries on and on and on. So for a lot of people, they really, really struggle with with all of that. And so often in my work, it's as a psychotherapist, is doing deep work, you know, if there's been some wounds in the past, but actually also sometimes it's sex education.

Adam

And I wonder if you can, sort of, if we can, sort of package a lot of all of these things. They're all distinct influences, but there is a sort of dominant force. It feels like there is, like a sort of, not that there's a there's this thing that seems to, like force us all together into being one particular way in terms of our sex and relationships.

Silva

That's right, the norms, yes, it's the societal norms that we have and that we absorb on the regular basis, because it's everywhere. Every time you turn the TV on, every time you go on social media, you're going to get those norms seeping in. So what we call it as a on a broad level, we call it heteronormativity. And so that means is that is the norms that are assigned to being heterosexual or having a heterosexual life, but within that, there's other normativities, like mono normativity, which is the normalization of monogamy, which means that everything that is not monogamy is perceived as weird or strange. And then we have repro normativity, which is the norms of of people. You know, it's the assumption that having sex for the purpose of having babies is the norm, and if people choose not to have babies, then something's wrong with them. And on and on and on. So there's lots and lots of norms when it comes to people's sex lives and people's intimate lives, and it's very easy to deviate from those norms, because the norms are really, really strict, and they don't fit many people. They don't fit heterosexual people either, and they don't fit LGBTQ people. It just fits mostly, you know, some, some kind of moral imperative that we have, that we have taken on in our society, after, after colonization and Christianity, really so. And is there on the stick, and a lot of those things now, they are so embedded in our society that we don't question them. So we believe them to be true without questioning them. And also, because it's post sex education, we have nothing else to compare it with. And then it really gets people to to go sometimes, in in directions that are not their own authentic self.

Adam

Well, this is something that I often find it difficult to talk about with people, not difficult in terms of, like, being inhibited, but difficult because it's, it's really quite conceptual, because, as you said, like, we're all a part of society. We're all like, swimming in these, these norms. And it's not like there's a special group of people who is like me and you because of what we do, that we're like outside of those norms, like we're just, as you know, vulnerable to being influenced by those things. And we all have these urges and these, yeah, these, these needs to conform to certain norms, whether it's to do with sex or anything else, like, all the time and so, you know, so it's not like there's anyone who's got the outside perspective. I feel like we're all struggling together all the time to, like, try to step outside of that. Try try to, well, you can't step outside of it. I guess that's the point. But like, try to just see it a little bit differently. And so how do we talk to each other about this? To say, like, look, this is the world. This is the narrow framing that you're in. And you just, if you can somehow find a way metaphorically to, like, look at it from the outside somehow. I don't know, how do we talk to people about this? Yeah,

Silva

it's, yeah, it's basically, we just have to be aware first, and to be aware of of those things, to be just constructs and to be and to get a habit of questioning it, to say, Where does that come from? Just simple things that we don't question. Like, for example, blue is for boy and pink is for girl. Where is that? Where is that coming from? Really, what it comes from? You know, the fashion industry years ago, that's where it comes from. It's nothing to do with, with anything, yes, real.

Adam

Also, I see that you're wearing blue today and I'm wearing pink.

Silva

Yeah, I know

Adam

that's funny. So, yeah, analyze that doctor,

Silva

right? And then there is, there is, you know, really simple things that is on every day, every day's narratives, for example, when you date somebody. So that applies to heterosexual people, but also to to LGBTQ people. You date somebody, and then, then there are some things that people think they have to do in order to move on the relationship. So after the, after a few, a few dates, there's got to be some kind of commitment to say, Okay, we're together. And then we question monogamy. For heterosexual people, they tend to go for monogamy, even without talking about it, because they don't know that they could do they could be doing something else and monogamy. So with heterosexual people, they go straight into monogamy, and then they will be just doing the next step, which will be, probably to move in together, and then after a few years, they might get married, and then after a few years, they will think of having babies. And those things are part of what our colleague Meg-John Barker calls the the escalator, and it's in their book called rewriting the rules. Actually, it's a great book, yeah, and and, and it's about this, this pressure. It's actually a pressure to go into the escalator and not to deviate from it. And if there are heterosexual people that get together and then they choose not to get married, or they choose not to move in together, or they choose to never have babies, other people around them will look at them and think, what's wrong with them? You know, there's something wrong in their relationship, surely, and that's what we call that's part of heteronormativity, and it's and it's everywhere. Yeah,

Adam

I love that idea of the escalator. I mean, I don't love it, but I love the clarity of the image and how it's helpful. And in my imagination, it's in one of those big department stores like John Lewis, and like, once you're on the escalator, you just go through all the different levels. You know, there's like, the clothing, sexy clothing area, and then there's the homeware area, and then there's the children's baby area, I guess. And then I guess, is there like a funeral parlor on the top, I guess? So, yeah, that's where we're going. So, all going, yeah, yeah, okay, no, that's really useful. And how do you find your clients respond to your suggestions that they think about their the world and society and their own relation to it in this way? Yes,

Silva

it's very confronting. I mean, for LGBTQ people, it's less confronting because for some, for because of the oppression that still exists out there with homophobia and biphobia and transphobia, we kind of aware that society is not always for us, and we kind of are more aware of questioning society and questioning what's going on, but for heterosexual people. So you know, they've never, a lot of them never had to think about what society tells them. They just take it as truth and and take it as their reality. And so when they come to therapy, and we think, hold on a minute, maybe you're having issues in your relationship or in your sex life, not because there's something broken inside of you, but actually because you're battling with what you believe to be true, with what society tells you you should be and and then they and then it's really confronting, because it might be the first time when they start to think, oh my gosh, yes, moving together. Why? Why? Why did we do that? Did we talk about this? One of the first question I asked my heterosexual couple, I mean, all my all my couples, but heterosexual couples, that question is more confronting. I asked them, How did you choose monogamy? And they look at each other like, Oh, my God, what do you mean? What do you mean? We didn't choose it. Oh, okay, so, and we start from there. Wow,

Adam

that is quite confronting to say that, because you know that they didn't choose it actively, right?

Silva

Right? Exactly. Most, most, some do, but most, most don't choose it and and in the LGBTQ world, it's a bit different, because there's a history of having different types of relationship, you know, to look after each other, to, you know, against oppression and so on. But even now, you know the a lot of. A lot of LGBTQ people do, do also go on the escalator. It's a different one, but it's still becoming one, you know. And we call that Homo norm activity. That's the the norms that that gay people and LGBTQ people have taken on to feel like they are legitimate, you know. So, so it's another, another thing. Well,

Adam

let's talk about that, because I think about the the the queer couples who take on those norms. I mean, you know, like I would say, like anyone does, and would take on the norms, because we're part of it. But if you think about those gay I'm curious to know from your experience of the of gay couples who have who might be described as having elements of their life that are homonormative. I don't want to say though they're just homonormative, but like, how do they understand and process the what might seem to me from the outside to be like something that's like, kind of like internal conflicts, you know, that, like recognizing that they are different, to the bigger norm that's in general in society, but then also to act, to take on some norms as well, like, I don't know, I imagine that's quite hard for

Silva

people to Carry this hard, yes, because the purpose of homonormativity is to be openly gay, because now we can in countries like the UK, but to also be palatable for the rest of society. So it would be that it has to be. So if I take examples of gay men, gay men would have to be in a well turned out, always young, beautiful, good clothes, a good job, good income, and and have a monogamous partner who lives in a lovely house and go on holidays three times a year and always look after their bodies and and then maybe adopt a baby, right? Definitely, definitely a pet and maybe a baby. So and those things are, you know, for many gay people, that's a great life for them. There's no, no problems with that. But for some, they do that because they think, Well, if I if I'm going to be more authentic with myself, if I think actually I want to be polyamorous, or I want to embrace my kink, or I want to be single and have casual relationships coming in and out of my life, or, you know, I want to do something else, be different, not have a professional career. Have be an artist. You know, those then suddenly deviate from

Adam

who you're talking about silver. And

Silva

some people sometimes will look at them and think, Oh, you're just weird. You're just weird. You're just one of those weird one. So, right? So it's and then when, when you start to really talk about that and question these norms, it can be confronting, because some gay people will say, well, but I'm choosing this. I'm actively choosing this. And say, yes, and, but what for you know? And, often they will go into places like, well, that's because then my parents and our parents in law get on, or it could be, well, because I can be walking into society, looking looking palatable, looking normal, so I'm safe, yeah. And so then we go there. And then sometimes, you know, it's not so much a big deviation for some people, because some people might still want to stay monogamous and so on, but it might just be like, you know, still embracing more of their queerness, for example, and and that can be just an extra element that's going to make them get to feel that they're authentic to themselves, you know, compared to just, you know, wearing the same suit as everyone else. Well,

Adam

is there? Oh, this is when you see the the one guy in the office who who wears, like, really loud bow ties, and that's his, you know, that's his personality or something, but it but, but I appreciate the complexity that you're hinting at, because it's not a question of, like, Are you inside or outside of something? Like, are you normal or not normal? Like, I know that the that is the sort of idea, you know that, like we we kind of, like make these categories. That's that is part of the unfortunate power of this kind of system in the way that we all think. But at the same time for those couples that you were just mentioning there, like the gay couples, who, on the surface might seem to be very homonormative or even heteronormative, I don't know, but then they just they can, but one of them's struggling, but he can find some kind of peace or happiness by changing one aspect of the thing. So he still wants his his marriage, and he still wants his children, but he also embraces his kink in in his sex life. That's right, something, yeah, and then he's like, because it's like, him, sorry,

Silva

sorry, carry on. No.

Adam

It's just saying. It's not even a question. It's not just a question of. Is he like, in or out this, you know, is he normal, or is he like, weird, or is he heteronormative, or is he like, fully queer? It's just like, well, there's different aspects of there's different aspects of both. That's

Silva

right. And because for some people, even heterosexual people, gay people, they can genuinely, generally feel a lot of joy out of being fathers and having children or being monogamous or being married, all of that. There's no problem with that. It's not there those things that are the problem. The problem is doing those things just because you feel you have to, and if you didn't, you'd be wrong, or something would be wrong with you. And so that is the difference. It's more about the motivation rather than what you actually do. And so in therapy, that's what we question. We question about the motivation. You know, what are you doing this for? Because a lot of the people that are trapped in heteronormativity and mono normativity without knowing it, and that's for people across the board, you know, heterosexual people and LGBTQ people, they will come and they will not say that. They will not come and say, Oh, I've got issues with heteronormativity. What they will say is, I feel depressed and I don't know why. Or I feel a lot of a lot of anxiety, and I don't know why. Or my sex life is not working. I don't know why. Or we look at each other in our relationship and we just can't communicate anymore. We've lost touch with each other, and all those things can be symptoms of something else, because to keep into a system that is not made for you, takes a lot of energy, yeah,

Adam

yeah. No, that is true. It takes a lot of energy to Yeah, force yourself yeah. You sort of almost can't really like you're never going to win, you're never going to succeed at forcing yourself, because you'll always have these doubts or this stress or this anxiety or depression or something,

Silva

yes, but then we wonder why people just go into rage and attack other people, or why people drink too much while people take drugs and so on. And you know, of course, that could be for lots and lots of different reasons, but the one of the reasons that we don't tend to look at is the pressure that our current system, that's given by society, has on us, and when we start to look at this, and when we start to be more aware of it, no, slowly and slowly, one day at a time, because Heteronormativity is everywhere every day, to kind of look at it and think, Oh, look. Oh, you know, you put the TV on. Oh, there you go. This is, this is one of those message and then it's easier to get to find yourself in all of this,

Adam

but you know, it's almost easier to I'm going to paraphrase something. It's almost easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of heteronormativity, right? Because we're like, swimming in it all the time, or we're on an escalator, which may be now underwater, if we're swimming. But anyway, the point is that it's a part of who we are, and it's the part of the society that we live in, and we can't fully step outside of it as we've as we've made clear. But it makes me think, you know, it's really challenging to imagine alternatives, and it's really, it's really impossible, and so therefore you get people, I'm sure, who say, but hang on a minute. This is my nature, and this is human nature. Like, it's human nature to want a partner and then to want to make a baby. Like, surely, that's biology. What do you say about that?

Silva

Well, from the point of view of anthropology, human species is not that much monogamous. So sure it might be. It might be human nature. Yeah, right. It might be human nature to reproduce, because obviously, we need to reproduce in order to stay alive on this planet. But it's actually, you know, human species have done that, you know, before Christianity, very, very successfully, without being monogamous at all. And so, you know, or even without being intersexual. Because, you know, there are some societies, you know, pre colonization, where there were, there was sex that was for procreation, and there was and then they had sex that was for pleasure, and that was different types of sex with different types of people and different gender mixed, mixed in together. So, you know, there are many different ways. It's not, it's not like, you know, reproduction is necessarily heteronormative. Sure, it's part of biology, but it's not part of you know biology is diverse as well. We know that. We know that biology is so diverse, and it means that if you're a woman, you don't always, not all women, like cisgender women. I mean, not all cisgender women have the biological clock ticking. Yes, a lot, a lot of them do, and that might be the biological drive to reproduce, but some really don't, and some are really not maternal, and some just would have a much better life not having, not being in a monogamous relationship and have babies. But the relentless pressure for women to have babies, or women to have babies, is really, really strong in our society right now. The point that there are some really nasty labels that are assigned to women who choose not to have children.

Adam

It's very Yeah, yeah. There was one of the US politicians last year was saying about, was complaining about, like, single cat ladies or something, in a really mean way. I think it was me, yeah. I don't remember who that was, but I mean, and that was kind of a bit of a moment where a lot of women resisted, you know, obviously, but anyway, yes,

Silva

or women who choose not to have a monogamous partner, women who choose to have several partners, then the word, words like slut are automatically assigned to them, you know, yeah. And, and this is, this is another problem in our society in terms of the norms that misogyny is also a norm unfortunately, that is out there and quite often unquestioned.

Adam

Yes, yeah, I remember when I said when I was I the one relationship that I've been in, when I told my mom that I was in a relationship, but that we were, I mean, I wasn't desperate to tell her that we were, like, non monogamous, but I but it came up or something, I don't know how. And, yeah, she said, Well, you know, we would call you a slut then. And but she didn't say it in a sort of, you know, in a in a positive, like affirming, inclusive, reclaiming, way, in a way that I use that word for myself, sure. And anyway, we don't need to. I mean, I'm not paying you as a therapist, so we don't my relationship with my mom, but it was, it stuck with me. I remember it, you know, it's quite it's a few years ago now,

Silva

yeah, and that's a perfect example of heteronormativity, how it just sips into conversations and sometimes really can be a problem in relationships, you know, relationship with our parents, relationship with our families, even relationship with some of our some of our friends, because judgments come with that, and sometimes it's really quite unpleasant. Yeah,

Adam

exactly like she didn't know that that that her using that word has an influence on our relationship. You know, which it does. I mean, it didn't really, it didn't change course because of that word, because it was a sort of confirmation of the course that we were on anyway, and the confirmation of the nature of our relationship anyway. But nevertheless, like it's influencing that

Silva

there's so many things as well that that the messages that we get consciously and unconsciously all the time about about that, you know, like, soon we're going to go into Valentine's Day, and what we're going to see is everything's packaged for two, you know. And you know, if you if you go on holiday, they are packaged for two, and if you're three, well, the third one has to pay a surcharge, because they'll be considered loan, loan traveler, and on and on. You know, in the media, all the romantic stories, all the you know, happy, happy, feel good movies, it's monogamy everywhere, and we hardly ever see a polyamorous relationship that is thriving in the media? Yeah,

Adam

yeah, that's true. Well, actually, thinking about the media and about films and things like that, I wanted to ask you if, because I'm a big fan of the arts and like films and novels and shows and music and everything so and it's a big part of my life, and it's obviously kind of a world that I occupy as well, because I'm, like, producing things. So I wanted to ask you, how important are the arts for people to self reflect, and when you when they come to you with some of these problems that we're talking about, and then you say, Oh, well, maybe it's because of the way that society is influencing you in one particular way. And then, you know, how often do people say, Oh, well, actually, you're right. It's this film. I think I'm trying to make my life into this film, or on the other way, actually, this character in this show made me feel like freer and made me think about the possibilities, like what you're now suggesting I could have for me. And so it's How significant are the arts? And maybe any examples that you can remember that have been particularly meaningful to people? Yeah,

Silva

I think it's really significant the art, whether it's painting, photography, movies, documentaries, are really, really important, and can have a profound impact on rethinking our lives, you know. And so it could be anything from, you know, actually being aware of political movements and how that influence our lives, because our sex lives and our bodies is really politicized and and and regular, you know, with regulations and so on, more than anything else you know. So and sometimes, you know, when we're inside of it, we don't always realize until we step out, and sometimes just stepping out is throughout and so and so. That's very significant, I think. And there is a lot of queer art as well. That's that's kind of this. More and more queer art, which is wonderful because it's both, both about a representation that we absolutely desperately need because it's not enough representation. But a lot of the queer art also can be about pointing LGBTQ people to the history and and, and it's important to remember the history where we come from, because we come from a place of of trauma, really, and when we know that there is a lot, so much trauma in the history, then we can understand ourselves a bit better today. So just the other day, I watched the documentary on what guess Gay, gay serial killers. But it was on the it was, it was a gay, yeah, right. Okay, great subject, but it was a gay serial killer that was going around in the USA, on the east side of the USA, in the 70s, I think, and that person was able to kill multiple gay men in pickup bars. Went to pick a bars and was able to kill multiple gay men. Because the first murder was not taken seriously. And it was not taken seriously because it was about a gay man and and if it had been a heterosexual person, it would he would have been caught and charged after the first one and not being allowed to carry on. And when we think of that, you know, this is part of the history. This is part of the oppression. And the same thing, the same history is in the UK here, there was a serial killer targeting gay men here in the UK, and you know, the police didn't pay attention to it. So sometimes, sometimes knowing the history through art, through stories, is very important, because it gets us to think about about it and to reflect. And the same goes with with other human rights, like the like rights for women. You know, women have their rights now here in the UK because of great activism, and it's really important to see that and to remember that, yeah, and And then sometimes, through with the art in the here and now, we can see ourselves through the vision of the artist. And that can be, that can be very profound as well. Do

Adam

you? Do you? Do you ever get somebody coming to you who's already been working with you for some time you know you, they might have been seeing you for six months or something, and you've been having these conversations with them to try to help them. And then they come to you and they say, Oh, my God, I just saw a movie last night, and this character, like, helped me to, like, click into place. Everything that we've been talking about for six months, about how I'm like, limiting my life, or how influenced I am by the norms or something, and that this character in this movie is just like, changed my life. Does that ever happen?

Silva

Yeah, I think. I think it's not, they wouldn't so much say it's changed my life, but they might just say, they might just say that's that has really crystallized what we've been talking about, or what we've tried to work on, because it becomes a representation. So it's more kind of like, maybe like a full stop, or maybe like some, some, some being, being able to be grounded in some of the things that that we can talk about and so, and there's lots of movies with lots of different themes, you know, it doesn't have to be a particular type of movie. For example, recently, wicked was one of those movies where a lot of people that came into my sessions a lot because, because, you know, it was not so much about the actual stories of the of the, you know, the fantastical story, but it was the theme of the theme of being different, being born different, always being different, and and being crit and being criticized for being different, and then deciding to go against the grain to choose ethics over power. And those are really, really big, strong themes that so many LGBTQ people relate to, and heterosexual women can relate to that as well.

Adam

Interesting. Okay, yeah. I mean, there's a, maybe there's a spin off podcast, which is wicked sex. What would that look like? I don't know. I'm not really a member of the the expanded wicked universe, but so enough to think about that, but that's really interesting about the point of knowing that you're or feeling that you're different to society, and how that has become such a common theme in like media in the past 10 or 20 years, or something like the freak, the outcast, the different one, and a lot of the underdog you know, like this is really important, and it's kind of, I can see it's in storytelling terms, it's really powerful, but also in, like, social terms, it's got kind of two edges to it, like it can be, you know, it's it's a It's not easy, it's not necessarily, what am I trying to say is it's, it's a double edged sword, I think, to see that you know and to to be that difference. Because also, I want to ask about the power of the individual. Because we were talking earlier about how you know you have to know yourself within the influences of society. To I do think that that's very important. I do also think that if we zoom out of like, where we are right now in the human timeline, and you and I are in, like, the rich developed part of the part of the rich developed part of the world, that like, there are different ways of having societies, right and there are, and right now we're in a, you know, we're kind of in a 200 year period where the focus on the self and the individual and like, you know, which is what liberalism is based on. Stuff like that is really important. And I that's been really important for sex, for our sex lives and for our rights as people. But also it comes with this downside, doesn't it of like making us in competition with each other, and making us selfish and all those things. So I wonder how that play, like this, kind of, like, deeper philosophical thing, of like, well, is society a bad thing if it's coming up with norms? You know, is it? Is it always the individual versus society? And how do you square that circle? I guess.

Silva

Well, you know, I think there are norms in all societies. And at the moment, as you say, in this particular time and space, we have certain norms in certain societies. But there are some, some other societies that don't that are outside of the West. And you know, they have their own rituals. They have their own way of doing things. They have their own way of life and and that we can, you know, rituals, maybe we can call them norms, or some norms. I don't know, really, but there's got to be some kind of like, humans are group people. We don't, we don't survive in alone in the world. So we have to stay in groups. And into stay in groups, we have to somehow comply to some norms. But in some societies, the norms might have been chosen by the people, all the people together to create those rituals, to create those norms. Here, at the moment, what we have in the West is just some norms that have created, that have been created for us based on some either religious imperative or political imperative, that are chosen by just a few, and that is then and then imposed on us. Of course, it doesn't, when I say that, it sounds like very authoritarian, but it's not really. It's it's kind of, it's part of democracy as well. It's part of the way that that that that our system is at but it doesn't mean that it fits all of us. So sometimes taking taking up some rituals, can be really wonderful, and I can be meaningful. You know, if we celebrate Christmas or the solstice or whatever, it's great to be able to celebrate those things as part of a ritual. But it's also important that we keep thinking about our individual, individual self, and to think about where do I fit in this? Because a lot of the problems that people have with their sex life or their relationships or the mental health in general, is trying to fit into a system that is not theirs and and then it's like and then when they retry and try and try without getting to know themselves very much, it can create a lot of tension in people's lives. So it's not about saying, Oh, I'm going to be an anarchist and not think of all the rules, but it's about thinking, how can I, you know, adapt some of those rules or change some of those rules? You know, it's not part of the those rules or societal rules. They're not the criminal rules. They're not, you know, you're still within the legal system. But to kind of thinking, how can I adapt those rules to fit me better? Like, you know, things like small things, for example, as I was saying earlier, if you're, if you're in a relationship, and you decide to commit to a relationship, the rule is that you have to share a bed, you have to sleep together, you know, every night. Yeah, right, yeah. And actually, some people just don't like it. Some people have terrible sleep. But if they if we start to say, Oh, we're gonna sleep in separate bedroom, in separate beds, and it's like, oh my gosh, is it the end of our relationship? Is it the beginning of the end? People get really anxious about that. And that's one of those rules that you can literally change and and you're not breaking the law, and you can actually enhance your life. The Rule of, you know, proper sex is penetration sex, you know, it's like, this is, this is a constructed rule that has zero evidence to be the best sex. In fact, it's one of the worst sex for heterosexual people. So, so it's kind of like, Okay, what if we decide to have sex that's non penetrative it can still be pleasurable. People can have lots of orgasms. It can be really fulfilling. But people are really kind of thinking, Oh, but you know, is there something wrong with us because we don't do penetrative sex. And again, that's something that can be easily changed.

Adam

Are there any good norms about sex that you can think of that we have in our society? Well, I

Silva

think in our society now we have a good I wouldn't say norms, but I would say principles. So for example, the principle of consent is one that we discuss a lot now in our society, it is actually part of sex education. So that is obviously a very good principle. The principle of shared values is an important one. The principle of mutual pleasure is an important one. And all those ones are principles that are part of the sexual health principles and so and of course. Protection against sexually transmitting, transmitting infections and protection against unwanted pregnancies. Those are also part of sex education, and they are really important principles to take on because but those are principles, rather than norms. So that means that if you follow those principles, as long as you follow those principles, everything else, everything else can can happen that is quite expensive, because you can definitely be, whether you know monogamous relationship or polymer relationship, you can still follow the principle of consent. The principle of consent does not, does not pressure you to be in one type of relationship. Yeah, and same with mutual pleasure, same with shared values, same with looking after your sexual health. All those things can be followed, whatever your sexuality is, whatever your sexual orientation is, whatever kink you have and whatever relationship structures you have.

Adam

It's interesting to think about the question of good norms, and whether, like, I appreciate what you said about those principles, and I think that they're really good, but, and there's that distinction between principles and norms, I guess, but it's, I just thought about that question when you when you were speaking, and maybe it's something for me to come Back to and think about a bit more. Yeah,

Silva

exactly. And some in the in some other kind of subcultures, for example, in the kink King groups or BDSM groups. And those are multiple groups. It's not just one, one, monolith, yeah, they'll have codes, okay, so they call it codes rather than norms, but you can say norms as well, maybe. And it's basically about its codes, that everyone knows what those codes mean, so that everyone can feel safe and everyone can navigate those spaces understanding the codes.

Adam

Yeah, yeah. That's really, really powerful. Okay, so we're nearly at the end of our time. Silver. I wonder whether you have any final thoughts about this, or any final insights or stories that you wanted to share about how we get to a world of free sex?

Silva

Yeah, I think that it's really about keeping in touch with ourselves and to be very compassionate with ourselves and our sexual partners and our intimate partners, and to continue continuously but gently questioning things that we believe to be true automatically without properly thinking about them, because it happens all the time. And so it will be and it has to be ongoing, because our sex life is alive, our sense of eroticism is alive. And that means that we change with experiences, with age, we change. And so the things that turn people on in their 30s might be different from what turns them on in their 50s, for example, and they might want to have different sexual experiences in their 50s compared to their 30s. So it means that we have to keep in touch with that. And the way that I say to clients, it's kind of like to make it less daunting. It's just like the experience that you have with food and how you expand your your food palette. You know when you're when you try new food, you might like it, you might not like it. If you like it, it becomes part of your palate. You are more likely to to have it again. And if you don't like it, you won't have it again. But, but also, you, you know, people get to be quite curious about food, and sometimes they go to new restaurants and try a new menu. And this is the same kind of philosophy to have with our sex life, is to be curious, to be open, to know what we love, what we like, and also to be open to the fluidity of it all, and to keep in touch with it, and to never be afraid to ask your partner what turns your now, you know, if, especially if you're with, with long term partners, you know, don't assume that what turns turns your partner on 10 years ago is still, is still the same thing. So it's just to keep, to keep the dialog going and to keep thinking, you know, when there are movies that we're watching or art, those are times where we can self reflect, and we can question ourselves, question society, questions those things that we believe to be true, and sometimes to think, hey, shall we share something about our lives? You know, should we sleep better in different bedrooms? Maybe, you know, let's, let's talk about it.

Adam

Oh, gosh. I mean, if I did have a partner, we would have to be in. First of all, he has to be able to, like, willing to like, somehow, know, to have to support me in my work. And it's, you know, it's not the most lucrative work that I do. And then on top of that, that also means that we have to have a house that's got at least two bedrooms so that we can sleep separately. But also, I've just entered my 40s, so I have to from, if I take anything away from this, it's that I have to maybe try a few more different restaurants now that I'm in a new day, sexual enjoy. So thank you, Silva, this has been really insightful. I appreciate your time and clarity. Thank you.

Silva

Yeah. Thank you so much. It was great talking to you.

—

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode!

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX - the idea or this podcast!

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x

Listen to this episode on your podcast player of choice.

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Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith.

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex?

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome.

Let’s go!

Should we change our sexuality labels?

My guest in this episode is Richard Sprott, a psychologist and sexuality researcher. Richard’s been exploring human sexuality for 20 years but says he’s still “at the beginning” of understanding it. His principle, developing, idea is about ‘kink identity’—which could help us to get to a world of free sex.

The idea is that our kink identities can be just as significant as our sexual orientations. In fact, for some people, much more so. Richard and his colleagues have used their findings from lots of studies to propose that we can place our sexualities into different themes of kink experience, namely sex, power, headspace and community. It’s a super interesting framing that could change how we view each other, sexually.

Adam

Richard Sprott, welcome to Free Sex. Well, very good to be here. Thanks very much for joining me now. I have been really thinking quite hard about lots of things that I want to talk to you about because I think your research is really interesting. I've read about it. I'm one of these, like, nerds who's, like, not, you know, not affiliated to an academic institution, and I have to, like, get my academic PDFs, like, illegally. I'm one of those people, okay, and so I've read your research that way, and I think it's amazing. So I'm really keen to talk to you. So you got to tell me, how do we get to a world of free sex? What's your big picture?

Richard

Big picture? Well, definitely, I've in my work trying to understand people's kink interests and desires, how they build identities around that. How they build communities right around that, one of the big values is, you know, the ability that sense of freedom to explore, that sense of having a lot of creativity when it comes to really being able to explore their desires and fantasies, and sometimes a lot of those can be very erotic. But kink also includes a lot of things that are not, not exactly sex, right? And so this creates a field. This creates a kind of a space to really be able to explore different parts of yourself, different ways of relating to other people, and then to build a community around that that basically supports sexual expression and sexual exploration is a very important part of how people construct, in essence, a kink identity.

Adam

So I want to, like, dig into the kink identity idea, then a little bit more, because it sounds like if we're going to build a free sex world, first of all, it's a world that some people are already building through the community building that they're talking that you're talking about there, and like through their conception of how central their sex life and their kink life can be to their lives. And so if that's you, I know you're going to give me insights about what you find from research there, from people, about how that works for them, but it sounds like in order to do that, you'd need to have a certain concept of yourself and your own identity in terms of kink, and that's something that I want to ask you about. So can you tell me about the research that you've been doing now for some time in kink identity and what you've found there, yeah.

Richard

Well, let's begin by talking about those people who their kink sexuality and their kink identity are pretty central to their sense of self. Yeah. And then we'll talk about people who where kink is kind of more optional or peripheral, but if we talk about the people who have really built their lives around their kink interests and kink relationships and being involved in the kink community, what we see is that, generally, there are four big areas that they're talking about, okay, when they say, Hey, I'm kinky, yeah. And one of the biggest ones is, you know, the area of sex. Mm, hmm. Kink is about sex. But here it gets really interesting, because for a lot of people, kink is not just about sex, or sometimes kink is not about sex at all, at least in some certain relationships and certain kinds of kink scenes or encounters. So what we note is that people really have a very have a range of how they understand the relationship between kink and sex, right? So for some people, kink is sex, period. It's it. That's what it

Adam

is. Yep, even if they're not doing penetration, like, whatever they're doing, it's, it's physical contact, it's pleasure in the body. It's sex,

Richard

right? Yeah, so, you know, we have, I have a lot of stories of people and interviews and things, of people who, you know, basically saying, you know, it didn't involve any kind of genital touch or orgasm, but let me tell you, it was incredibly erotic, right? And so it's, it's that, you know, kink and sex are kind of blended. It's interesting. There are, there are some people whose kink identity is kind of put in a big boundary between kink and sex. Okay, so So for for example, you know, I've talked with some pro DOMs, pro DOM professional dominatris, who like, really make it clear. It's like, I don't do sex with my clients. I only do kink. The boundary here is really good, so that I have a difference between my professional life and my personal life. Or other people who really want to explore their king safe, talked about it with their partners, but they want to preserve monogamy, yeah, in their relationship, and so they basically negotiate a way of like, okay, you can go out and do kink, but it shouldn't involve any kind of sex, right, right? Orgasm, penetration, things like, yeah, I just think so there are reasons why people, like, put a boundary between insects, but most people don't. Yeah, most people kink is, it's a like a spice it, yeah, it intensifies the arousal. It adds to the experience. So there's that sex part of a kink identity, but then the other big part for a lot of people, at least, the question, they have to kind of figure out, if they, as they try to figure out, what kind of kinky person am I? It is about power, power differences. And a really big part of kink is eroticizing power differences between people. So someone's a dominant, someone is submissive, yeah? Someone is a master, someone is a slave, someone is a, you know, a handler. Someone is a pub or a cat, right? Yeah? Or a kitten, yeah? I even know a couple of rabbit and things. Oh, really, I've never known, yeah, oh yes, a human rabbit. So the the thing about it, though, is that by exploring these that power is erotic, and being able to do that in a way which, you know, still, they can have this sort of, what we call power exchange or authority transfer. Some academics prefer authority transfer because it's a slightly more accurate description. I'm giving somebody else authority over me, yeah, or I'm taking authority over another person. Because the idea is, you know, you don't really give up your power, right, at least in any kind of, you know, ethical way, yeah,

Adam

you actually don't, right, like you're the, actually, the ultimate power owner, if you're giving power to someone else, yeah, exactly.

Richard

So that's, the other part, right? So, if it's about sex, it's also about power and exploring that, and being able to like, consciously negotiate that. This is what I find erotic, and I want to experience this, you know, either power over someone else or giving power to someone else. Then there is a large part of what people are talking about, if it's not sex and power, is head, what I'm calling headspace, which, in the kink communities, a lot of the times, is called head space, yeah? Really is a kind of like, I'm going into a particular role, yeah? Or I'm having a spirit. Experience Yeah? Or I'm going into a particular head space that is really important for this scene, or this yeah kind of relationship, so headspace becomes really important. Like, what am I mentally, yeah, spiritually, experiencing Yeah, and trying to figure that out so it becomes as like kind of playing around with the transcendent, which, of course, sex is a avenue to transcendence.

Adam

Yeah, I wonder, Is that the one that a lot of people who are not experienced in kink find hardest to really understand what is going on there for people, and almost find hard to believe that that's a that that's a possibility, that that's that that is really happening, because it it seems like quite different if you're not used to having that experience, you know it's quite different from normal life where we think of ourselves as like rational beings who are in control of what we're doing when we're walking down the street. You know?

Richard

Well, it certainly is the case that a lot of people do experience and in King they they come up against right, the limits of the rational mind and and then, you know, continue to experience things in their bodies and yeah, and to have these, sometimes an out of body experience, if the scene gets really intense, yeah. So a lot of people will kind of talk about that, those moments. Not everybody experiences them. There are a lot of people where that kind they go into kink, looking for those kinds of transcendent experiences, or, you know, I'm gonna get out of my head and into my body, yeah, and, and kind of focus on that. But for a lot of people, it, it's not, it's not their main focus. So especially if, if we think about it, the people who tend to approach kink in a more spiritual way, I'm estimating, probably, as it seems like, about maybe 10% 15% of youngsters are really doing that. So it's quite a low proportion. Yeah, it's a low proportion, but it's still pretty there and pretty distinct, yeah. So yeah. So there really is this, and I see it as part of that, okay, that line between having that experience, a kind of transcendence. Experience is that really different than going into a space where you know you're really taking on the role of a, you know, a powerful dominant, or, right, you know, a complete submissive, yeah? Or, as I said before, you know, taking on a role of a pony or a pup,

Adam

yeah, a kitten or a rabbit. Your friends the rabbit or a rabbit. So, so you've got these components, then sex, power, community, you mentioned earlier, and headspace. And I'm wondering whether and you, you call these the components of kink identity. When we think about sex and sexuality, normally, with the word identity, we have words like straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, are your words about kink identity, like, what do they add? What do they challenge to those other words that we're normally used to hearing about sexual identity?

Richard

Well, there's certainly again. So the first thing is that some people, the kink is pretty central. Their kink identity is very central to their sense of self. Yeah, and these are the people I've been talking about. Mostly it's like by looking closely at them, we can figure out that kink is about sex, power, head space and community. But there are some people who who kink interests and kink desires is something that's more peripheral. It is not the main thing they're focused on. It's not central to their sense of self, but it's something they kind of dabble in. And so there's tends to be this range of sometimes in the field, we call it serious leisure, okay, yeah, that, you know, it's kind of like, you know, those people who really, you know, like, sky diving, or, yeah, like, you know, bicycling 50 miles, yeah, yeah, in the trip, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So when we when we look at that, we can see that people can build identities, very strong identities, around their serious leisure, right? But often they'll experience that leisure as something that is optional. It's not central to their sense of self, yeah? So some people approach kink that way? Yeah, that well, kink is something I do from time to time, or kink is something I dabble in once a year, or kink is something, you know, I don't consider it to be really central, so, so that's the first thing, is that there's this range of like, how peripheral or central kink is in terms of your identity. That adds the complexity too. So for those people whose kink is very central to their sense of self, they experience and think about and act as if kink is their sexual orientation, right?

Adam

Yeah, right. In fact, which is something that we're like, we don't generally think of like, most people would be surprised. I don't know whether they say most people, but just because of the dominance of those other labels, which are about orientation that we're used to using like, it's almost like, I imagine that those people for whom kink is more central to their identity, their sexual identity, it's almost like, I imagine them feeling like people don't believe them that much when they say that, no, it's more significant that I'm a sub than the fact that I'm gay or straight. Like I bet they struggle with that. Yeah.

Richard

Well, and that leads, yes, they can struggle with that, but it's really interesting when people start exploring kink and getting more and more involved and finding out, it really connects with them. That that often it raises questions about, like, well, what is my sexual orientation? Yeah, if, if what I'm really after is I want to submit to someone more powerful, does it really matter if they're a particular gender? Yeah, right, if I'm really after like an intense out of body experience, does it really matter who's throwing the whip or the flogger? So So what we find often is that when people start exploring kink, it actually expands a bit their idea about what is a good sexual partner, yeah, or, or their own sexual orientation,

Adam

yeah, like, what kind of body do they desire?

Richard

Yeah, yes, exactly, especially if in this very intense and intimate connection the body is, you know, in some ways, not the most important thing. So does it really? Does it really matter? And so what we find often is that people will start exploring their kink, and they'll go, Well, maybe I'm really hetero, flexible, yeah, yeah, in the sense of, like, you know, there may be, are certain situations where I might play with someone who's a different gender than the one I'm usually playing

Adam

with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So we can define

Richard

a lot of sexual and gender diversity within the kink community, right? Yeah, because there is this freedom to explore, yeah, and this encouragement, right, to really explore what you like and to identify what you don't like well, and to hold to that, but still to the ability to try things out.

Adam

Yeah, and it makes me wonder, like using our framing of the world of free sex, where anyone can have the sex that they want. It makes me wonder what the world now would look like if we hadn't all grown up over the past 200 years with the common sets of sexuality based on orientation, which is based on like, the sex slash gender that you desire. So imagine if you could just like, delete the past 200 years of sex lives and sexology, and replace the framing that we use for that with your kink identities of and the themes there of sex power, community and headspace. What kind of world would we be living in now if we'd grown up in that?

Richard

Well, I would imagine that much like if, if we grew up without all of that, we wouldn't be pressured into identifying whether you're heterosexual or straight or gay or or bisexual, yeah, and of course, all the stigma around like, you know, bisexuality, yeah? Is it real? Yeah? Yeah. Right, you know, and all that other stuff. I, you know, I teach several classes that are that are just like focused on the stigma that bisexual people,

Adam

yeah, yeah.

Richard

All of that would be gone, right, yeah. I think the same thing would be, actually, we wouldn't even have the word kink. It would just be, this is what I like. Yeah, okay. Do you like that too? And can we do that together? I

Adam

wonder whether we would all be using those, those charts of like, with this different like spectrum lines a little bit more within that you've got a power spectrum line, and you're like, Well, I'm kind of around the 40% level of the power spectrum line, and, but when it comes to, you know, something else, I'm around an 80% level and, and whether we're we're just engaging with each other on on that basis, it feels like that would be great and freeing in the way that You're implying. But also, I wonder whether it would feel like from our perspective, where we're coming into where, like, would it feel kind of like inefficient and that you have to have, like, really long conversations, first with everyone about, like, all the different ways that you are, there all these different parts of your identity, sexually, yes. What do you think?

Richard

Well, you know, one of the other aspects that would probably flow out of that is perhaps a bit more understanding and tolerance around fluidity. Okay, yeah, that you know what I like, or the kind of person I like to play with, yeah, or have an erotic encounter with might change. And so, yeah, you do end up having to spend a lot more time talking about you know, this is one of the things about the kink community, if you talk to the people really involved, is they love to talk about sex. They talk about sex all the time.

Adam

I know they're always the easiest type of people to get on free sex, because they're like, Yeah, of course, I'll talk. And then there's, like, the shy person that is really interesting and has some really interesting ideas that I'm, like, trying to coax out, you know, but they've got, like, a whole different political framing of how we what policy we can change, or whatever, and it's really interesting, but they don't necessarily want to talk about themselves or about sex or their ideas, whereas the kink people are just like, yeah, definitely. Also, here are some pictures of me in my outfit. Yes,

Richard

exactly. They like to show off, but see. But that's just it. It's like all of those boxes kind of, you know, they short circuit, you could say short circuit, or they certainly just speed up the whole process of like, yeah, who are you? What do you want? Yeah, yeah, and, and, sort of like, if I say, you know, I'm I'm a gay male, I'm a heterosexual man, then, like, we don't have to have all of those long conversations about, yeah, like, what I like or what I want, because they're all built in, right? All of these expectations and all of these assumptions are kind of built into those boxes, yeah,

Adam

but I wonder if that's changing. I just wonder if, as a result of more and more, I think representation of different kinds of sexual practices, including all of the kink ones. Well, maybe not all of the kink ones, but a lot of them that, and you know, quite significant amount of de shaming and de stigma work that's been happening. I'm not saying we're anywhere near some kind of utopia, but as a result of all of those things that it does feel like there are the labels of, well, I'm gay and a man are increasingly useless, you know, or I'm a heterosexual woman, because, like, actually, then you're like, Okay, well, I'm in the gay man bar for the gay men, and I'm the gay man, so therefore I'm here, and I fancy that one over there, so I'll go speak to him. But then, actually, when you talk about what sex you like, the chances of you being compatible, maybe I'm just kind of talking about my own experience all of a sudden. But like, the chances of you actually being compatible are still quite small, and it's because and the insights that you've got from your research show how much diversity there is, even within what we think is quite a small label, which is like gay man, for example. And so I wonder whether you know, because we're now more or more aware of all these different options, and we see lots more, and we've maybe explored some people have explored more that like actually those traditional labels are less and less useful.

Richard

I definitely think so. I find it in. My own work that I'm having to now, you know, like, often we have to, like, describe your, you know, sample your group of participants in this study. Who are they? And so you go through and you give all of these boxes, you know, what we're starting to have to do is like, okay, in a normal, you know, survey or something, you have to click on a gender box, a sexual orientation box, or racial, ethnic identity box, yeah. But now we're starting to ask, so does that label fit you? Yeah, yeah, and, and. And what we find is, you know, for some people, that's like, yeah, it fits me, yeah. And then for a lot of people, it's like, well,

Richard

yeah, yeah.

Richard

And so I agree with you. I think that these days people are not. People are more aware that the label or the box may not really fit and and before I would say, people just sort of assumed that it, it did Yeah, and it

Adam

was Yeah. Well, I wonder whether, you know, we are gradually moving into a world where those old boxes don't really work anymore, and that when it comes to people talking about their sex, I mean, and their, I guess, their body and their genders and stuff. And that the ideas, like yours, and that, you know, other people's ideas that's coming out of this kind of, like in depth research. And I want to ask you how you do the research in a second, like, the ideas that's coming out of the research are like, being put out there, and then they will be taken up. You know they will, you know that we will start to use them more and more because we realize that they're, they're more and more useful. I mean, I'm, I don't know that feels like I'm, maybe I'm hopeful there, and that's probably what you want, right? But like, I just wonder whether you're kind of at the vanguard there of coming up with those terms, and even if we're not using them properly yet that we will start to see them being more useful.

Richard

For me, the use would be, oh, maybe we need to talk. Maybe I need to talk about this with a potential partner that I'm attracted to, right? I know like me. So maybe in a way, the Yeah, you know, at the very the biggest impact might be, don't take all this for granted. And yeah, make a lot of assumptions, but really, just talk about it, yeah, and, and to be open, yeah. But you know, it's interesting, because while there has been a lot of movement as you describe towards more like, being sensitive about like, oh, wow, this huge range of human diversity, yeah. And these old boxes don't work anymore. These labels, we can't really assume what they mean anymore. You're getting the backlash right, getting the large reaction to that and in every single country that I could Yeah, you're right. You're absolutely right about people going, Oh, that's too much, right? Because, if, because, if I don't know who you are, I don't know how to react or interact exactly.

Adam

I don't know which of my pre judgments to use against you.

Richard

So, you know, I'm conscious that we that's part of the as part of the reaction of putting all this out there is, yeah, it frightens some people, because it's like, yeah, well, then I don't know where I where I stand, and, yeah, how do I have to even, like, question myself? Yeah, yeah. And that can be really I understand and I appreciate that. That can be really frightening, yeah. And, you know, this has always been the kind of first argument against any kind of, like a recognition of diversity, yeah, sexual orientation or gender, or anything like that. And that is, yeah, you're undermining society. Yeah, exactly. You're attacking the family. You

Adam

know what? You know? Oh, yeah. And you know what? I think that the way that we treat intersex people is a really good example of how that's shown up. You know, because although intersex incidents, or people born with, you know, differential sex development conditions and things that, although it's relatively low in society. It's bigger than most people think. But most people are not born with one of those conditions, right? And so most people have a pretty good idea of what their genitals are and how they fit into a certain box. And so the fact that there's so much mistreatment. Intersex people by the medical profession and historically and politically and even today, so much like stigma around it, and like political mistreatment of them, I think, is the evidence of your point or like aligns with your point that like, Well, it's because those people, by definition of who they are, they unsettle how the majority of people think about themselves and their bodies, because it's like, well, I know what I am, and I can't say what you are, and that makes me think, well, maybe my category isn't so solid either, and you know all of that, and maybe I'm threatened by you because I can't place you, and that. I mean, I guess you could say the same thing about transgender people versus cisgender people as well, like cisgender being the majority, majority there that it's like, well, I can't quite you don't kind of fit into how I understand myself, so therefore I can't understand you, right? Yeah.

Richard

I mean, if you go back in time 200 years that you were talking about, you know, the main ideology was that there was no difference between sexual orientation and gender. Yeah. I mean, yeah, if you were a man, you were attracted to women, yeah, that was meant to be a man, yeah, yeah. And so that your gender determined yourself. It was all fused together. Yeah, that's right. Was all in a story that made complete sense, yeah? And then over time, people were going, you know, it doesn't quite work that way, yeah, yeah, wow. Look at all of these examples of people kind of being a little bit different than that, yeah, and, and that, I think, is, is like, Okay, well, now, you know, society, culture has made a step towards, okay, well, like, yes, there's this diversity, yeah. But, and, and, you know, it's just along those lines, yeah, interesting. It's just like another step going down that path of like, recognizing that you really can't put people in boxes, yeah, or your sexuality speak,

Adam

speaking of the boxes, though, I do want to hear a little bit more about how you do the research. So apart from asking people those things about how they identify, how do you set up things? How do you discover that there is such a thing as these difference these different kink identities and these different experiences, discover them to the extent that you can sit here and say to me, Well, Adam, this is what we've found. People are like this, and people are like this, and people have this thing, you know, because you know the way that you describe it, which is great, is definitive, you know it's like. And you're a scientist, you've observed these things in the in the people in the world. So I kind of want to know, how have you done that?

Richard

Well, I mean, you have to begin very so there's a couple of challenges. One, one is you have to, since we don't know what we're talking about, we have to begin very broadly, right? So in a lot of the research. So I've been doing this research since about 2005 and and still, I kind of feel like I'm at the beginning, 20 years later. But the idea is that you first, you have to reach people who at least are willing to step forward and go, Yeah, I'm kinky. Right? Yeah, whatever that means, and try not to define that. Now, there's a couple of things about that. One is, I don't know how else you can begin, because there's, there's no, there's no, like, big organization where all the kinky people are registered. You know, at least not. I hope that dude doesn't come, yeah, but, but the idea that first you kind of put it out there, we're talking about a stigmatized and hidden population, yeah, it's not really recognized by any institution or system in our society, and

Adam

it is something that you can, for the most part, hide. You know, you can't hide your rate. You can't really hide your racialized, your racialized identity. You know, in in certain ways, you know it, whereas something like, or you're or, for some you know, other things, you can't hide that part of who you are. Whereas with kink, it's you, you sort of can. Yes,

Richard

very much. Yeah, so, and you know, the same thing with, for the most part, sexual orientation, right? Yeah, you can't really see it, yeah, obviously, yeah, in the first minute you meet somebody, yeah? So, so you have to, like, first, find people you know, who have this particular part of their sexuality, and then, and so that's really difficult because people are hidden. People rightly so right are in the closet, or they stay hidden because they are afraid of what kind of negative consequence might happen. You know, people, people have lost custody of their children, and they've lost their jobs, and they've been kicked out of, you know, their churches and, you know, things like that. So I think that that's one of the biggest challenges. So you just kind of put it out there, going, Hey, we're looking for kinky people, the thing about that, though, is that kink is a huge umbrella. There's so many different things. Yeah, we also have a lot of what I call adjacent communities. So, yeah, furries, yeah, abandon, yeah. There's a lot of communities that they're not kinky, yeah, exactly, but they're pretty like next door neighbors, yeah, interesting. So, so when you look at that, so you try to reach out, and yet there's this huge umbrella so that when we do our studies, it's that was really the first, the reason why I even started trying to figure out, so what does it mean to be kinky, sex power, headspace, community, kind of, you know, evolved or emerged out of, out of doing a lot of work. And a lot of that work is often in depth interviews. Some of it is surveys. Surveys are really helpful when you're trying to get a sense of like, well, how much variation is there? Yeah. Surveys are also really good if you're trying to get you know pretty specific information. Yeah, for a whole group of people. I

Adam

also just want to check on the methodology there, because whenever I've read sexology from the past, whether it's like the middle of the 20th century or the late 19th century, and there's a lot of you know, interview case studies, interviews with people, I think, less surveys, apart from, you know, 20th Century. Yes, surveys. Anyway. The point is, I'm like, How do you know that people are telling you the truth? How do you check that? Because that really worries me, because I respect the research, love the fact that it's being done, but if it's based on what people say about their sex lives, we all know, don't we? Yes that that's can be dodgy. So how do you know that? How do you what do you do about that? Richard stresses me out. Help me? It does and it should.

Richard

It always should. So there's a couple of things. One is, actually we tried doing a study. And I'm not the only person in my field, or in the field of sexual sexuality research, yeah, who's had to deal with this. But we have a new challenge, and that is,

Adam

we have a lot of bots. Oh no, who take the surveys?

Richard

Yes, they're trying to. They're trying to enroll in these things. They're trying. They're taking the surveys, and of course, they're just randomly answering Yeah, things often. So, so there's and this is where it's like, oh, walking into this world of AI and all of these bots and things like that, it has become even more your question becomes even more important, yeah, yeah, because the scale getting, you know, sort of terrible responses goes up. Yeah. Noisy, noisy responses, yeah. So really, the only thing we've got is the tried and true scientific sort of method, which is, we need multiple observations, multiple testing. We need, okay, not just the results of one study, yeah, but the results of a bunch of different studies. And yeah, they all point in the same direction or not. And so actually the field of kink studies, or kink research, is now getting to the point where we have enough studies that we can now start to see and start to trust the research. Results a little bit more clearly, but that's the only way to handle it. Is to, you know, you can't rely on one study, yeah, you have to have multiple people looking at it in multiple ways. Yeah, do they all point in the same direction? Yeah, and, and so we've been doing that right for like, 20 years. But in those 20 years, like the number of of academic studies and scientific studies and scholarly, you know, research, you know, way back was like, you'd be lucky if you had 100 articles published in a year about, yeah, kink, yeah. Now it's like 8000, 9000 a year,

Adam

right? Okay, yeah. So it's a big and growing field, yeah, where you can do, hopefully, meta analysis. But that also, I mean, that's also makes it quite to use your word again, potentially noisy, and it might be that there are dodgy papers within that that aren't that can't be replicated, or that have been falsified or whatever, and we need to check if that's if those are being weeded out, I guess. Yeah.

Richard

So, the other kind of response is, is, rather, you really just can't rely on a mister base. Yeah, yeah. A big weakness is that you can get a lot of, you know, noisy answers.

Adam

So you got to chat to people. Got to get on the phone.

Richard

Exactly. Love that you have to talk to them in person. You have to go to the events, yeah, and so this is where, you know, back in 2012, 2013 I founded my second, actually, community based research organization. So it really is this like partnership between, you know, researchers and scientists and community members, and the community members really do this kind of, like, reality check, yeah. It's like, oh, that finding doesn't make any sense. That's not anything like in my experience. And then we go, that's really interesting.

Adam

Yeah, say more. Yeah, exactly, interesting, yeah, so,

Richard

I mean, doing community based research is one way recognizing that, of course, everybody who's kinky is not really connected, yeah, to an organized King community, even though we've had an organized King community, really since the early 1900s

Richard

Yeah, yeah.

Richard

That we can, that we can point to, which

Adam

is really societies and groups and stuff.

Richard

Yeah, yeah, right.

Adam

And actually, that that makes me We haven't got that much time. So I want to make sure that I ask you this, and that's a good segue into it, thinking about how long communities have existed and for how long people have been having sex and kinky sex, for sure. And I'd love to know if you can think of any historical people, either real or fictional, that are really, really interesting when you apply your like modern kink identity framework to them, and if they haven't, if their story hasn't been told, from that perspective,

Richard

that is a very interesting question. Well, you know, this is one of those, those things about when looking back from present day to the past, and what I call that person kinky? Yeah, if you look at some of the, you know, like behaviors, or some of the things that they've, you know, fantasies, they've written, or something like that. You can see a lot of the basic elements. But today's kink identity and kink community, because it's based on, you know, the first fundamental thing is consent, yeah? And if you go back in time, it's not always really clear that it was consensual, yeah, so is that the same thing? Yeah, and, and, so that's the first question you have to ask. Yeah. Well, okay, yeah, they were flogging, yeah. Was it, you know, was it, was it done in the same spirit? Was it done in the same Yeah, that we do it now, yeah. Plus, there's been, you know, people having fun with sex have also created so many different toys and technology and everything you've got to assist them in their kink. Yeah, it becomes like, wow, what we do today? Is really different, yeah, yeah, because we can do things differently, right, yeah. So taking all of that in consideration, you know, kind of looking back, yeah, I'm

Adam

gonna make you. I'm gonna make you pick someone, or think of someone. Oh,

Richard

well, you know, of course, everybody goes back to the market Assad and oh yeah, rocker moss suck, yeah. But, I mean, they were pretty explicit, right? And yes, the reason why we have masochism and sadism, right? Yeah, yeah, as words, but, but also, if you look in particular, I think the market Assad, there's a lot about that that is just unrecognizable, yes, as can for BDSM today's point, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I would say that's really hard, because a lot of people kind of kept things, you know, either under wrapped, or it was just like, this is the way this person is having sex. But it doesn't really need to be remarked upon, yeah? You know, we're not supposed to talk about sex, yeah,

Adam

that's right, yeah.

Richard

So that's a really challenging question well,

Adam

and I'm very interested if anyone else has ideas about it as well. And it might be, you know.

Richard

I know somebody in Brazil has done a whole history of the dominatrix. Okay, yeah, which is fascinating, yeah, kind of going back to, oh, I got to read that, yeah. Oh, some people are just like, Oh, they've been doing this a long time. Yeah,

Adam

Exactly. How did they do it? Um, I, I won't keep you any longer. I think it's been really great to just think about the different ways that we can describe ourselves and understand ourselves, so that we can explore and build communities like what you said at the very beginning, because that's really what the intention of this all is. Of this entire enterprise is just to give people the tools that they need to understand and explore themselves, so that they can build the connections that they want, really for pleasure. So I think I'm it's really interesting research, and I want you to keep doing it and putting out into the world. So thank you, Richard. It's really great

Richard

My pleasure.

—

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode!

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX - the idea or this podcast!

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x

Listen to this episode on your podcast player of choice.

Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith.

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex?

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome.

Let’s go!

—

Do we all share a communal sexual energy that’s just waiting to be activated?

My guest in this episode is Kalah Hill, and she thinks the answer is definitely yes! Kalah works with individuals and groups of people to help them to discover and channel their sexual energies. She’s all about rooting our sexual pleasures in our bodies, our spirits, our ecosystems and our histories. So she was a fascinating guest for Free Sex.

We talked about how Kalah creates play parties, the history of ‘eros’ from the Ancient Greeks, the science of music and frequencies, and sex education. It was such a deep and interesting conversation, and I’d love to know what you think about Kalah’s ideas and practices. Let me know!

Adam

Kalah Hill, welcome to Free Sex. Thank you for taking the time. I've been anticipating this conversation because I feel like it's gonna really challenge me in all the good ways, thinking spiritually and about connection and stuff, which is something that I don't do enough. So that's my anticipation. So I have to ask you to start us off when I say to you, what do we need to do to create a world of free sex?

Kalah

Hmm, I love this question. It's so good. So yeah, freedom is like my middle name, so this really speaks to me, and sex is one of my favorite activities. So I really, I really believe, and I really trust, that the erotic, the sensual, the sacred sexual, is a part of a resource that is inherent to our communal and interdependent, relational aspects. And so do see freedom and sex and pleasure as a way of us remembering ourselves and remembering each other and remembering the ecosystems in which we dwell, in which we've inherited. I think that Eros and the erotic is really a resource that we have forgotten as a as a society, that is a resource of nourishment, that is a resource of health and wealth and abundance, and something that I think we have Great opportunity to tap into and re enliven as we come together more and more.

Adam

Okay, this is a really, like, gorgeous vision. And I just immediately feel like I'm sitting in a rainforest, actually listening to you and like, you know, all the all the cacophony of noises and smells and textures and everything. So I think it would be really useful for me and the listener as well, now that we've got your vision there to hear a little bit more about what you do and how you spend your days, because I think that that's going to help us to explore that bigger idea that you're talking about.

Kalah

Yeah, well, I call myself a few things. I have a few titles. One, being an erotic healer, a heart tender, aim Slayer, a freedom doula. So I'm really utilizing, I'm really using, utilizing the erotic as a space for remembering the truth of our nature, the truth of who we are, and coming home to ourselves in places of sanctuary, rest, healing, remembering. And so I work with individual clients. I also do and host group experiences, group play experiences of the sexual ceremonial kind. I do private work, private hands on, work with individuals, couples, polycules, you name it, and it's been incredibly, how do we say, like, incredibly revealing, I would say, very experiential. I went to school for marine biology, so I'm a bit of a nerd and scientist at heart, and so I collect data and kind of observe and then really come to a place of, I guess you would call it unconditional love and support and non judgment, or that humans, yeah, can just kind of deepen their their relationality In that way.

Adam

And what is the most common characteristic between all the people that come to you for your services?

Kalah

Yeah, I would say the most common characteristic is that there is kind of a space within the. Their erotic understanding that they can sense like they can sense that something is rising in their eroticism, in their sexual prowess, but they're not quite sure like what it is, what to do with it, how to relate to it, how to be with it. And I kind of hold and support them in like, awakening to this aspect of themselves. Now I would say that these are people who I wouldn't say they're beginner level. You know what I mean? I really thought it's not like, what is sex? It's kind of like, I know what sex is. I've been involved in my sexual my sexual expression, for some time. I know that I have more to offer. I know that I want more, and I'm not really sure how to go about it in a way that will keep me grounded and anchored in myself and not lose my my sovereignty or my agency like you know, they really need to learn deeper skills and how they relate to their their sexual expression,

Adam

right? So it's kind of intermediate to advanced sexual practitioners who are like, this is great. I want more, and I want to be cleverer and more connected into it. Basically, yeah, exactly,

Kalah

yeah.

Adam

And now, with all of that in mind, then I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about Eros, and that's partly because I'm a history nerd, and this scene, this sounds to me and to most other people, like a concept from another time. You know, so you're going to tell me more. I hope so. Tell me a bit more about that concept. Where does it come from, and how is it still with us? Or why should it still be with us today?

Kalah

Yeah, so Eros. And I'm taking the definition there's, there's a Greek, uh, mythological definition that Eros is the personified, the personified love that's born from chaos. And I'm also taking this definition from Audre Lorde's essay, uses of the erotic. The erotic is power. And in that essay, she goes into rich detail about Eros being a feminine quality, a feminine resource, a feminine power that has been buried primarily by the patriarchy and colonialism. And this resource is a resource that I also like to pull from Jungian psychology, from the animal and the animal that reside inside of us, and how to integrate that, how to integrate this power, I think, is really important right now. And, you know, we like to say history repeats itself. And I'm kind of like, on this edge. I like to also call myself an edge walker, where I'm like, what if? What if we expanded the circle, right? Maybe it's not so much repetition, as much as it is remembering where we come from and remembering our origin. And through that, expanding beyond where we are now into something that really integrates our history allows us to sit with all all that we come from and all that we are from our space of origin, and really integrate that into the landscape of our coming home to each other in very powerful ways, ways that we haven't even really tapped into, uh, to its full extent, yeah, and I think this evolutionary process is just kind of appealing to most human beings. I mean, it's very appealing to me, like I want to evolve. I don't want to just stay in the same place my whole life. I'm interested in change. I'm interested in the power of change and what that looks like, and this is specifically through an erotic lens, like, how do we change through arrows?

Adam

Yeah, and that's really great, because that is the thing that every guest that I have on free sex shares, which is the need for change. Change for and everyone comes at it in a different angle, you know, but we need to change our relationship with sex and with our bodies, and that is through changing the systems around them. Now, I don't know enough about Ancient Greece to know whether they had everything right. I doubt that they did. I'm pretty sure they didn't, but, but it sounds like, from what you're saying, that they had, they had something that was maybe a little bit more right than, than, than what we think now, if, if they did come up with that concept, and they definitely, the ancient Greeks definitely do predate capitalism. So you know, they had, they had that right. Um, how do you think capitalism and patriarchy have for. Shows up since the ancient Greek times in terms of our sex lives.

Kalah

Yeah, you know, I think we've lost, you know, I think what the Greeks had, what we didn't was, was they didn't have the same distractions as we have now. So, so they had distractions.

Adam

They didn't have fucking TikTok for sure.

Kalah

Yeah, they had distractions, but they were very different distractions. They were more, I would say, survival level, survival based distractions, you know, like, how am I going to make it till tomorrow? And now, kind of, it's become a dopamine, I would say, capitalism and patriarchy has created dopamine burnout and over overload to our to our bodies and our nervous systems, and so we're not as anchored in place and time, yeah, I think as as the Greeks were, or as our ancient ancestors were, and those kind of registers of somatic aliveness, I have been lost over time as, like, you know, kind of the comforts of the modern age have kind of taken over. And I think this is why we see a lot of anxiety and and mental health stuff going on. Because we're, I think we're kind of looking the animal in us is kind of looking for that resource of place and time, and kind of we're lacking that, right? We're living in these, you know, manufactured houses and boxes, like we have running water, and we just turn on the tap and we flush the toilet and we turn on the telly and like, you know, it's all kind of very quick fix orientation, whereas, you know, prior to all of these systems, we had a little bit more spaciousness and attuning to each other, pretty much out of necessity. I mean, not because we were necessarily more advanced, but but if there was a necessity there for us to attune to each other in more kind of spacious ways, so kind of bringing ourselves back to that place, and like a lot of that is what I do in the play party space is like these extended times. You know, most of my parties are overnight experiences, they go into the next day. They're really kind of this extended space to allow ourselves to settle into a different orientation that's not so dopamine driven. Allows us to come more into the resource of oxytocin, for example, like a more extended reality, you know, I also, also think about that. Think about kind of just time a lot, you know, how time is so different before, kind of, you know, Google like I can just like I can literally just google anything, yeah, yeah, to this question. You know, instead of having and and find out for myself and experience that for myself, and I think it's a disservice to our somatic intelligence and like our embody, our embodiment is kind of atrophied a little

Adam

bit. Oh yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm much happier that I'm having this conversation with you right now than with ChatGPT, for sure, because so let's go into these play parties a bit that you do. Then I'd love to hear you break down a little bit more about how you plan those and how you set up that space, thinking about things like time and somatic experience. Like what are the components that you need to get right?

Kalah

Yeah. So a lot of, a lot of what I love is, is the preparation phase. So the preparation phase is so critical, almost more critical than the actual experience itself. So I do a lot of preparation in that every single person who attends, and I usually cap it around 2025 I've even gone lower recently. I like, went down to 10 people for one event, and that was, like, phenomenal. But every single person who, who comes to the event is is is interviewed, slash, has a private session with me prior to the event. It's about 60 minutes for each person and and we get to chat. We get to explore what, what your sexual desires, fantasy, needs, fears, longings are, and like we go pretty deep in those sessions just prior to the event. So what I love about that is that it gives an attunement of like building trust prior to even meeting in person, yeah, which is also what I do with my private clients. So we have extended, usually month, at least a month to two months of meeting online. Having conversation, having these sessions, and really getting to know each other before we even meet in person, for for the private experiences I do, which are very similar to the group experiences, yeah, and so that preparation, that kind of like upfront work, is so supportive. What I also enjoy prior to the party is, once everyone is confirmed, we can start a WhatsApp group together a collective, and we can make introductions in there. So I've done for a few parties. It's challenging because it's hard to get people to confirm, like in advance, a lot of people, they want to wait to the day of, and they're like, I want to see how I feel, you know, like, okay, cool. And if you commit earlier, you actually will have way more resource available in terms of connecting to the people that are going to be there prior. But you know, not everyone make choice that way. So, um, so there's tons of preparation, right? Like, there's this be kind of open, like we're getting ready to meet, almost as if you were going into, like an Ayahuasca ceremony or a plant medicine journey. You are making preparations for that journey before you space, yeah. So that's one, yeah, and then step two is coming together. So, you know, I usually enjoy starting around sunset. I like that, that timing. I think it's really a nice time for us to, like, intentionally circle around, have the sun go down and like, begin. Yeah. So everyone gathers, and in the beginning of the event, we do an opening circle where we do a little bit of like a fire ritual with candles. Everyone has a candle that we light, and everyone speaks into the space. It's very important for me that everyone's voice is heard before we begin. You know, the delightful things, the playful things, and we really get to share our voice, our name, our intention, so that transparent and clear why we're there, you know. And everybody kind of knows, like, okay, cool. Like, this is why this person's here. This is why this person's here. And, and you might start to feel matches. Right? Like, oh, I would match that intention. Like, yeah, you know. So you start to kind of orient towards the space in a really, like, slow, delicious way. Opening circle can be anywhere from, like 45 minutes to an hour, like in its completion. I give a spiel about, you know, the sacredness of the space, consent, sexual health and all of that had actually, is actually discussed in the individual interviews as well, prior to the party, yeah, prior to the party, yeah. So there's a lot that goes in, in terms of information, transparency, intentionality, why we're there, and and then we'll usually do a couple ice breaker little workshop kind of games where we kind of divide into, like, tripods or, you know, whatever, into smaller groups and kind of start conversation. And then I always like to have, like, some sort of performance that will spark arrows into, okay, okay. So I sometimes I perform because I love performance art. And there's this one, one performance I did that. I'm actually going to be doing here in Mexico City for Zona Maco, which is art week here coming up. I'm not sure when this podcast will be put out, but, and it's a great performance. It's basically Shabari, so I love to get tied. I'm very sensitive. And so my dear friend Charles, he does shibari, and my other dear friend, who plays the cello, incredible cello player, we did this beautiful Shabari and live cello performance that was just Yeah. It just sparked. It brought that erotic energy into the space. Very, very well.

Adam

Quite the double act. So then after the performance, then what happens next? Like, how do you facilitate? Because it feels like to me that most people's expectation would probably be like, there's sort of a moment where we're kind of. Expected to, like, get together and do stuff, is that right? Yeah.

Kalah

So I also call myself. I have many titles, but what another title is the play, fairy instigator. Okay, I am a bit of a play fairy instigator. I instigate play very naturally, like, it's not, it's not, like, super contrived. And I let people know, I say, Listen, after the performance, we're gonna go into free form. Okay, I would go into free existence like I also, I would say, I also, kind of, I help people understand that they are an adult and autonomous and amazing, and I trust them, and I tell that to to the group. I say, I trust all of you, yeah, to be here, yeah, with me like i i open my my heart to that experience, and I think it's deeply felt, because it's deeply authentic, like, yeah, like bullshitting anyone you know in the space, yeah, and they kind of see me, and I think just so magically and emotionally and like, with all kind of, like the CO regulation that's going on, like, in seeing me in the space, kind of just like be like, I start, I start to play. I start to be, be in the space in a very erotic, sensual way, chit chatting, dancing, moving around the space in this more animal way. And that kind of gives permission, right, okay? And I would also say that most of my events, at least 60% of the people there, are quite experienced. They've been to multiple play parties before, had these experiences. They they know how to be in the space. They love the space. It's they might actually host play parties themselves, you know, yeah, well, there's, there's experience in this space too,

Adam

that, I think. And actually, I just thinking about that for a second, thinking about the people who are less experienced in going to a space like that, I think a lot of people might be thinking, well, you know, I know what my sexuality is, and I know what my desires and tastes within that are, and therefore, if I'm going to a pretty open, mixed space like this, like first of all, there's going to be only a certain percentage of people that will match my sexuality and my tastes and desires. And I can see that obviously what you're trying to do, you know, is the is pull people out of that and be more open. And I think that that's great, but that seems to me like a really difficult challenge. So with all the will in the world and all of the preparation and all of the language and everything. How do you what do you think about that challenge like because that seems especially now, because we're so we're living in a time where we're so categorized and so specific, and people use apps to literally filter for a person with the exact three tags that they have, you know that match. So how do you jolt us out of that car? I really want to know.

Kalah

Yeah, so that's also in the curation of the space and the preparations. So the interviews are interviews, in a sense, right? It's not just a session with me, but it is actually an interview to see like, Oh, would you fit like, kind of the theme or the common thread lines that I'm seeing arise in the group that is coming forward? So I have to be incredibly open. Yeah, incredibly open in listening to what's coming through. So so each event that I've hosted, for example, like the name of the event, it comes through in meditation. It comes in my own somatic opening prior event where I'm like, Okay, I feel a calling. So I've never hosted an event, just out of my own will, okay, events from a space of feeling called to hope, okay, yeah, a sensation in my body or has arised and I am being directed by, you know, something I think, universal higher power, whatever you want to call it, consciousness. And this is the spirit aspect, right? This is the aspect of spirit calling me forward to be of service to my community. I. Really trust and believe that that is my positionality, and so I'm holding, I'm holding it in a way of deep, deep trust, like deep trust for humanity, trust for our community, and saying, I'm willing to open up and receive what's needed here, every single event is different, like every single event has a different texture, a different flavor, a different thread, line of need and a different thread, line of nourishment and people, that's how people are connecting. And what's happening is that it's emergent. So as I'm doing interviews with people, these themes start to emerge, okay, like, not, like, contriving them, you know? Like, I'm not, like, this is specifically what we're doing here. I'm just opening up and saying, Okay, what's needed? Okay, yeah, and then I'm listening for that need, and then I'm curating around that need.

Adam

So you can hear in how people are responding to the planning phase, you can hear them either say or say between the lines about how they're interested in stepping out of their sexuality category that they're normally in, or their particular taste, or something that they normally like to do, and that they're kind of open, and you can hear the specific ways that they're like that. So then you can match. You can create a mini community for one particular party. Yeah? Wow, yes. Yes, yes. I want to ask about, maybe this is a bit more about spirituality and about the the ecosystem. Point that you were talking about earlier, just because I did a recent interview with Diana Isi, who's a DJ. And I know Diana from like, like, queer club nights and raves in London, and, you know, she's a DJ, and it's these spaces are, like, they're definitely sex positive, and sometimes there's sex that happens at these at these raves. But she was talking to me about music and how, you know, bringing people together to dance together, you know, and that being like a kind of sex, and then they might go off to the corner and have sex, right? But when she was saying about sounds and frequencies and how they kind of get somewhere deep down inside of us, into our core, and maybe that they activate certain chakras or something. And she said, I'd love to hear someone talk about that a bit more, who might know a bit more about that. And I wonder if that's you like. So can you talk to me about sounds and frequencies and like, the human body and like, why I don't know what's going on in our nature when we listen to certain sounds and frequencies,

Kalah

yeah? Well, I have to say one of the best orgies that I was ever a part of was a sound bath. Gong, right, yeah. Experience. It was about 13 of us, yeah, 13. And my dear friend, he does Gong, Gong sound baths, you know, and he's there with the gong, and he just starts playing. And it was very natural. It was not planned, and that's what I'm saying. Like so much of what I do in these spaces is just to let the nature emerge. Okay, really give spaciousness to creative exploration. And so everyone kind of brings their gifts as well. I say that to them. I say there's something you want to gift the space, if you have an art or something like bring it. And so my dear friend, he brought his Gong and just started going with, with with the gong, and everyone kind of came together. It was really interesting. Like there was kind of separate things happening, and then slowly, as the sound rose, like people just kind of started to collectivize, and, like, we all came together as one big group, and we started just kind of moving with each other. Like, at first it was like, kind of like a cuddle puddle, yeah, and it kind of like started to move as the sound rose, and as we got deeper into the experience, my one friend, she brought over an ice cube. She went to the freezer and got like ice, and then started, like, putting the ice on people's bodies, like you know, and everyone you know when I talk to people about that experience in reflection, because I also do integration calls after every experience. So that's also the. Attention of time around it. But as I reflected with that, with people, like, on that specific Gong bath experience, they were like, Yeah, I don't really know, like, if we were, like, having sex, but it felt like we were having sex. And like I had tons of orgasms, but like, no one really touched my genitals. And like, right, I was in another space, time, reality, and my friend who was playing the gong even said that he felt that he was a part of the space, even though he was playing the gong, yeah, and he couldn't stop. He played for about an hour, yeah, wow, maybe even more, like we went into we went into it, and it was really powerful. Because, yeah, we became kind of this puddle and ooze of like erotic expression, like this collective expression, and you can't really tell, like, who was who and what was what, but it was, it was, like all you wanted to do was immerse yourself in it. And I do find that sound vibration that dance. I'm a dancer. I've been practicing a dance called Five Rhythms that was established by Gabrielle Roth in New York City in the 70s, 80s. I think she, she established it. But I've been dancing for about 15 years now under under that practice. And so I am a mover and and that aspect, oh, it's definitely erotic. It definitely elicits this beautiful, sensorial, sensational, orgasmic bliss. Like, yeah, dance floor. It is, yeah. It's very sacred to me.

Adam

Do you know anything about and thinking about your background in biology and also the marine world, and thinking about dolphins making sounds and also being like, you know, ocean based slots. Like, do you know anything about sound and frequencies and like, what's going on biologically or hormonally for us, whether we're a dolphin in the ocean making squeaks or we're in the presence of your friend and his Gong,

Kalah

yeah, I know either one. Either one works, right? Yeah. I'm not sure if I know the exact science behind all of it, but I will say that having a scientific background going through, you know, graduate level courses in biology and the depths of cellular biology like, you know, ecosystem based science, cellular biology, like, I don't know How anyone goes through that curriculum and doesn't walk out believing in God or, like, believing in some sort of spiritual divinity, because it is just such when you get down to the nitty gritty of, like, our cellular existence. You start to see that there's a lot of things that we just don't know. Okay, right? Yeah, right. There's a lot of things that that are happening for us that we have no control over. And that gives me such deep faith in something larger than my my brain, you know, my cog, my cognitive ability, so I just simply trust that there's something beautiful happening there.

Adam

That's interesting because it makes me think about those of us who haven't been to one of your parties, or people who haven't been to a party like that, or any kind of sex space like that, and they and those, those of us who feel, and I sometimes feel like this in certain on in certain days, you know, like, where you feel like, okay, I know what my sexuality is. I know what I like. I'm in control of it. It's I like this thing and this thing and that type of person and this type of body, and then I put all of those keywords into the porn search engine, and boom, this is, this is what I want. And so I'm wondering whether part of getting to a world of free sex is finding space for everyone to know what you're talking about there, which is that that there are so many mysteries, actually, and to be open to those mysteries, and that seems to be kind of a prerequisite for having, like, a free sex world, and for a particular individual to Go to a space like the ones that you create, you know where you're like, You got to be open to the mysteries and things that are going to emerge from inside you that you didn't know was there. And whether you call that a chakra, or whether you call that an energy or something, or God, or whatever.

Kalah

Yeah, you can call it just about anything. But I. Think that there is a collective agreeance that there's something there that we don't know, that is holding us and then, you know, it's funny, as you were speaking, I got a visual of one of the participants at one of my events. It was his first play party experience. He was very nervous about it, and is, I don't know what's gonna happen. I'm like, Yeah, we never know what's gonna happen, that we get to set up things accordingly so that we're safe, so that we have secure structures in place where we're being held. And so I kept assuring him that that was the case, yeah. And you know he came, and you know, I could tell he was a bit nervous in the beginning, midway through the experience, or maybe this is probably around, like two in the morning or something. I see him running around. We were in this, like, beautiful villa in Mexico, and I see him running around completely naked, like, almost, like, like, spreading his arms, like, like a bird, like, was flying, you know, like he was literally flying through the space free. Like, yeah, I was like, Wow. What a transformation in one evening, you know, one experience, and, and I do see this, this innocence, you know, it's like, kind of like this innocence that comes out by, by the course of, probably, like, the midway point, like, there's, there's like, a turning that happens, and, and this innocence reveals itself and, and what that does to our mirror neurons, like what that did to me to see him in his liberation, yeah, you know, gave permission to my body, for My body to relax into this space, right? So there's this registry, and what I love is that upon exiting this space, I'm exiting the space from a very different orientation than when I entered the space, and as I go out into the world, from this new orientation of freedom, safety, trust, compatibility, connection, like I am entering the world a completely different conduit of impression and influence and impact. Like I do believe, like I fully, fully believe that if our leaders, if our communities, were somatically oriented towards those things, we would have a very different day to day experience and reality in our leadership. Yeah,

Adam

yeah, no. It's so true also, if we gave them all MDMA, but that's but yeah and but, yeah, I just want to turn now for the final section to thinking about moving on from what we've been talking about in terms of, I think, personal attitudes and how we can all open our minds More to create the world of free sex. And I'm interested in like, if, you know, if the if, if a president or a mayor of the city came to you and said, like, Kala, like, I love what you do, and like, the people of my country or my city need to do this more, like, because, because what you're doing is, you know, it's not as common as, you know, I live in in London and, like, there's a pub on every street corner. You know, this is a big thing that, like almost everyone does, but what you're but we don't do what you're doing. So if I was, you know, the the mayor, and I would be like, Okay, how do we get all these parties going? And, you know, in the same level of engagement that the pubs are or the supermarkets? I don't know, because we all seem to spend our time in supermarkets as well. What, what practically do we need to do, like, what laws need to change, what policies need to change, what needs to change economically, and this is all separate from the attitudes that we're talking about, because let's assume that we can do that. We can, we can change those attitudes in the way that you've been talking about an openness. And then let's just, let's get to building the city of free sex.

Kalah

Yeah, oh gosh. Well, I have a couple things, couple things hit me first and foremost, like education, because I think there's a massive under undereducated, misrepresented misunderstandings around sex and sexuality and the history. History of the erotic, the history of queer BIPOC liberation movements? Yeah, I mean, there's so much in there that people just they don't even have any information around and so to get to get the education right is kind of like, kind of the first step. It's like people really need to understand what this is about, because all they kind of see is, like a big pornographic, right, right, big screen kind of thing.

Adam

So reading that Audre Lorde essay at high school, the one that you mentioned at the beginning, for example, like step one. Step one, read Audre Lorde Yeah.

Kalah

Read Audre Lorde read bell hooks, all about love, like you know, read, read Black Feminist literature as much as you can to kind of get this understanding of pleasure activism, the lineage of Yeah, the liberation movement through sensual, sexual, erotic liberation. Yeah, that's step one. Step two is like a numbers thing. Like, I think that, like, I don't think that this is, there are experiences. So I will say there is, like a beautiful Festival. It's called headonia. I don't know if you've heard of it, but they have. They have been able to expand the numbers in a way that, like, I don't think I will ever care to do. They've been able to do it in a way that I think is quite lovely, but it still is not as impactful as I like. Okay, yes, things to be in terms of, like a healing space. So if creating healing spaces, then there's a cap, you know, like, there's a cap number of people, of course, that we share this experience with. And I feel like 50 is like coming to me. And I feel like that number is also something that about, like our ancient tribal systems, like the communities we lived in were around 50 or so people, yeah, we didn't really go beyond that. And it was kind of like this, this very livable experience at that number, yeah. So I think for continuity, consistency, depth of practice and healing. There's definitely got to be like a cap on this. It's not like a, you know, 1000s of people kind of experience, you know.

Adam

But one way to achieve that at the level of like a policy would be, you know, just as we're saying right now, the hospital system in the UK needs, we need 2000 extra nurses. We're short staffed, you know, in a city or a country. Could say, you know, we need 2000 colors, you know, and like, train them up and then they work in nodes, in small communities of 20 to 40 people or something. So it's thinking about like, why is that not a policy goal? Yeah,

Kalah

yeah, totally, yeah. How? How to really keep it small and localized? I think is really important, just for the practice, the practice of inherent trust, and also, I would say, an open, an openness to fluidity and change. Because the other thing about Eros and the erotic, and if we're going to be putting this into, like, you know, policy and cultural practice, is that it really, it really takes away a lot of the controls that we're used to, like, you know, in terms of, like, change and predictability. And I think we're gonna have to let go of a lot of, like, outcome oriented, yeah, motivations, you know, like, we can't be motivated by the outcome of it. We have to be motivated by the transformative power of it, yeah, and how it's going to change us. And people are gonna come and go, and, you know, these little pods of 50 are gonna evolve and change and have different iterations and different calibrations. And if we can be open to that kind of like unpredictability and trust ourselves in that type of movement, then I think that would also be part of it as well.

Adam

Well, I am ready for this world. I hope that you become the mayor or the president, and we can, we can see it happen. You know, I'd love something like that. I think that's everything that I wanted to ask you, Kalah. Thank you so much for taking the time and helping me imagine that free sex world.

Kalah

Thank you. It's been a joy.

—

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode!

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX - the idea or this podcast!

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x

Listen to this episode on your podcast player of choice.

Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith.

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex?

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome.

Let’s go!

—

How can we create non-judgemental sex clubs and dancefloors?

My guest in this episode is Diana Isi, who is part of the underground queer scene in London. As a DJ, Diana helps to create precious spaces where people come together to feel good, feel sexy, to dance, to commune, to kiss and maybe more. Diana’s vision for free sex is spaces like this, which operate without judgement or labels or categories.

She told me about her own experiences on the gay male scene and how they led her into the queer underground, her process for creating music that makes people want to fuck (or snog at least!), and about the politics of creating non-judgemental club nights. It was a deep and heartfelt conversation about something that’s essential for us both, and I’m grateful to Diana for joining me in that.

Adam

Diana Isi, welcome to Free Sex.

Diana

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Adam

It's, I'm really, really grateful that we can have this conversation, because I've seen you out in the club quite a bit, and you can't really have a proper conversation on the dance floor because there's music like pounding, and there's a million people. So it's good that here we are, Sunday morning, 11 o'clock. I've got a coffee. We can just have a proper chat about free sex. So are you ready for this?

Diana

I'm ready. I've been preparing myself a week.

Adam

Amazing. So what is your answer when I say to you, what does free sex mean to you, and how do we get to that world?

Diana

Yeah, I mean, for me, it's definitely where, you know, people feel free to express what they actually feel without being judged, and where they wouldn't be stopped by, you know, other people's sexuality or gender or anything, if they Is that something that they want and they desire and they just go for it, I think especially in London, because we all kind of segregated into different groups. Sometimes that can be quite difficult. But yeah,

Adam

so tell me a bit more about why. First of all, you think it's really important for for our like, future sex lives, for the club scene to be non judgmental. Why is that important?

Diana

It's important because, I think really right now we are, you know, because we are in all these different bubbles, or, I don't know, scenes, people feel like they cannot express themselves, so they suppress certain parts. And, you know, they might not be able to ever experience something that they once desired, because they don't, they don't feel free to do so, or they feel like they're going to be judged by their peers and, you know, their friend group, or people surrounded by them. I think I seen that quite a lot, especially, but I think in any scene, but in the gay male scene, for example, if a man ever mentions, you know, finding the woman attractive can be quite judged, yeah? Well, this and almost like you're not part of the pack anymore, yeah? I think amongst women that's kind of similar, yeah? So yeah, I think if we were, you know, not being judged and rather endorsed to follow what we desire at the moment that we might not even like you know it in the end, it might be a fantasy, but it might be something that would go somewhere.

Adam

It's funny, isn't it, because the those labels that you're talking about are the ones that people have fought really hard for. Like, you know, lesbians have fought really hard to use the word lesbian and to have a lesbian club night, and gay men have done the same. And that's part of, like, the whole LGBT rights history, and that's really important. But then it means that we all land in these, like, separate places, and they're quite narrow,

Diana

and in London, it's very prominent. I think, I'm not really sure, but like, for example, in Berlin, it feels slightly different. It all feels kind of more liberated. But you know, that's why I don't really like me myself. I don't like to use the term lesbian, for example, because I think that puts me in a narrow box. And I don't want to, you know, stop myself from I just like to use the word queer now, yeah, and I think I wasn't aware of it in the beginning. So even even me, you know, like being exposed to the London scene first, I used different labels. But then, as you know, I grew old and I had different experiences. I thought, you know, I'll just use the word queer because it's more broad, and then I'm not putting myself in the box because I don't know what's going to happen or who I'm going to meet or who I'm going to gel with. Yeah.

Adam

Yes, yeah, that's so true. Can you say a bit more about the differences between Berlin and London in the club scene?

Diana

So London is, I think, in my opinion, at least, or from my experiences, Berlin is feels a bit more liberated in every sense, because the underground is almost like, that's the main scene there, yeah, and even if you have people like tourists traveling, you still coming as from an alternative scene. You know exactly when to go out and you know where to go in order to have like that majority around you. And there, it's almost like, does actually everyone's united for, let's say, the love of music or so, and it doesn't really matter. No one cares about what gender you are, or you know what you look like. It's just everyone's united on the dance floor for those reasons. Yeah, in London, the underground is underground because the mainstream scene is more commercial scene. Let's say where you know you as a queer person, for example, going out, you don't really feel like you belong. So the underground scene is necessarily here, for sure. Yeah, yeah,

Adam

yeah. That makes that makes sense. I wonder how it's going to change in the next 10 years. In both of those places. I

Diana

do wonder as well. And actually, in London, it's more, you know, everything here is, I think, moving. If we had clubs here, like bigger clubs that would host more underground events. Now it's really moving underground, like semi kind of legal, that's, that's, I think, where, that's where the scene is going slowly. Everyone is kind of retracting and going to, like, smaller events, smaller clubs, you know?

Adam

So we, I want to dig into this theme of sex a little bit more, because, you know, for a lot of people, sex is like, sex is a thing that you do in private. It's like in a bedroom, you go on dates or you have a partner and stuff like that. So why are we even talking about sex in the context of the club, where there's 500 people? What is the relationship between the club and sex? To you?

Diana

Well, there's that sexiness about being at the club. You know, it's outside of a domestic setting, and especially when it's like a like a fetish environment, or something like a darker industrial there's something sexy about it being surrounded by, I don't know, hundreds of other queer people and sweating together in, you know, with music and everything it's it's something that you Can never recreate in the closed setting. Yeah,

Adam

I see so it's so it's its own kind of sexiness, isn't it? Actually? Yeah,

Diana

it has that energy for sure. Yeah. And I feel very privileged to be part of the scene. You know, we could go out to a queer rave and be sweating together and dancing and kissing and, you know, kissing your friends and you will never, you know, there's nothing wrong with that, yeah? You know, it's almost like that is part of who we are, and we all just embrace it in the moment. Yeah? And have that connections with each other, those connections

Adam

I've had some of my some of the like, best experiences of my life have been like that with friends or a mixture of friends and strangers, like in the club, and it's just the combination of music and atmosphere and energy and bodies. And it really does feel like the the way that people, the way that sex is like, traditionally described as this, like, beautiful connection, this making love, sometimes transcendent. That's the way that it's traditionally described. And it's like, I've experienced all of those traditional descriptions, but like in this non traditional setting of the club where there's not penetration, there's a mixture of bodies and genders, there's 500 people, and maybe it's just snogging and dancing, but like that has felt like those that kind of amazing love making or transcendental sex that you hear people talk about when they're Talking about more conventional desire, I guess.

Diana

And you know, it's, it's definitely a way to connect with people, yeah, you know. And it's a different type of connection. And as I've heard you say on other podcasts as well, it's, you know, sex. You know, what is sex?

Adam

Okay? Okay, well, what is, I'm going to ask you that, what is sex?

Diana

Well for me, it's, you know, is again, it's, doesn't mean penetration, it's, it's, it can be just an intimate connection with the other person, yeah, but you know, not necessarily that kissing people in the club is sex, but it's sexy, for sure, and it's, you know, you have to. You don't do it just for the sake of kissing other people. You're doing it because you're connected with that person, and you're flowing with each other, synchronized with the music, yeah, for me, that's pure bliss, like, you know, it just sends my brain into, you know, it's just a, like, a natural form of high. It's yeah, from it as itself, when you catch yourself when the stars are aligned, and you're in a club and the beat is dropped, or you're dancing with someone to music, and you just feel that your hearts are connected with the other person. I've had that moment before, even with someone that I didn't know as well, but our hearts, you know, who had a heart hug and, yeah, that was beautiful. Oh,

Adam

I love that. A heart hug, yeah. So how important, and I'm asking you as a DJ, because I've I don't DJ. I used to play the drums when I was a lot younger, but I haven't played music for years and made music for years and shared it and you, but you do that and you you use music to bring people together. So how important is music in creating that kind of atmosphere that you're talking about there?

Diana

Yeah, well, it's music is vital. Because it's definitely, it's part of the equation. Yeah, the music is not right. And here's why, in every I could play for one party, you know, several times, and bring an absolutely different, you know, set to the, you know, to the event, like different types of music, different songs. Because for me, you know, I count in the promoters, the venue, the time of day, so many things and how I feel, you know, on that night, because that's going to contribute to creating that atmosphere for people to be relaxed. What am I trying to create? Am I trying to create a sexy atmosphere? Am I trying to get them to dance, feel happy, or, you know, more, like hip like a hypnotic sound, where, you know, taking them on a journey somewhere. So it's very important, and that's why I always play kind of sometimes very different music, right? Yeah, event to event.

Adam

So it can you say a bit more about your process for that, if you were hoping to create a atmosphere which is sexy and also having that element of non judgmental that you talked about at the beginning. Because, you know, those two things are combined, aren't they for you? So, so if you're trying to do those two things, and you're thinking about, how, what, what music do you fill the air with? I don't know, what's your process? How do you so

Diana

usually I I get, like, a feeling, almost, for that night, it starts with with, with a feeling I'm trying to, like, I have a vision. And then, let's say it's something sexy and dark some maybe it's slow, or maybe it's faster, depending on if I have an opening set or mid set. And then I go with, like, trying to pick songs that I feel have that kind of vibe in them. And then, you know, I just thought, like, one by one, picking, and how do I feel? Would I feel relaxed? Am I feeling is it making me feel sexual? Is it making me feel like, you know, if I'm relaxed enough try want to have, you know, potentially sex, if it's at the sex club. So, you know, it's just those. And it still slowly starts building one song after another. But when it comes, usually closer to the event, that's when I try to think of whether I wanted have a specific journey. So generally, I have that vision already. Let's say, if I want to start with it a little bit slower, and then it will progress to a more I like to include, incorporate something that has a drummy sound as well, because I feel like that's quite tribal, and it will bring us back to kind of our roots. And you can't resist to dance to this kind of music. Yeah. So, you know, even with your just your foot or your toes, I mean, it's like just.

Adam

Just for the listeners, I can just say that right now, you're kind of moving, and you're like, you're moving to a rhythm there as we're talking.

Diana

Yeah, you know, for me, dancing is important. That's where you know, from my personal experience, I would be relaxed and I'll be connecting with people's bodies as we're on the dance floor. So this is generally how I feel about it, and what I try to recreate,

Adam

yeah, yeah. And in a way, when you do that, when you're specifically trying to create a sexy, non judgmental space through the music, you know how we talked five minutes ago about the way that it's sexy between two people dancing or more people, and like kissing and having that connection. Do you feel that as well as a and is that important to you to feel that as a DJ? So it's almost like you're having a kind of sexual interaction with the 500 people on the dance floor, or something. I mean, important.

Diana

It's important to sometimes, when you're playing, you're a little bit more kind of like a manager headset, because you're working, yeah, you're working. Yeah, you're you're there, yeah, you're there, trying to concentrate. But you know, eventually, and you need that feedback from the audience. And when you look at the crowd and you see that instant feedback, and you see them having a good time. I mean, it makes you feel amazing. That's, that's why all the DJs DJ in the end of the day, you know? Yeah, yeah. I honestly, I think, actually, it was one of the parties that you had. It was the Papa Loko at Fold. And yeah, basically it was, I had the, you know, the early set, and at one point, like towards the end of my set, I just looked at the crowd, and it was in this purple light, beautiful. And everyone had their hands in the air, and their bodies were just like twirling. And I, you know, that that made me really, really happy. That's, that's when I was like, wow, you know, and the dance floor was empty to stop it. So it was like, the meditation was, there was no one. Everyone kind of woke up from the meditation, and they just started walking.

Adam

And, yeah, that's amazing, that you made that happen. You made that energy, you know, well, we all made that energy, but you were the one who was, like, in charge. You were at the boss, leading it.

Diana

It's very like rewarding, especially if you have in an opening set to see the dance floor go from zero to, like, hundreds of people. Yeah, it's beautiful.

Adam

That's funny, because I would that's actually quite a lot of pressure, isn't it? Maybe not. Maybe that's how I would feel. Are you quite chill about it?

Diana

Yeah. I mean, I'm never chilled even. But, you know, usually an opening set. Sometimes people don't really like the opening but in different contexts, it can work, but you know, it's the only one where it's extremely rewarding, because you are generally going from zero to almost like a full club, depends when people are showing up. But yeah,

Adam

yeah, also, although, I guess I always think, like, do DJs want to be the famous one who is the closing set, maybe? But then, if you're doing the opening set, you do your work and then you enjoy the rest of the party.

Diana

Yeah, 100%. Otherwise, you have to wait for ages and you're you're never really relaxed until your set starts. Yeah? Is you're just there hovering, being, yeah,

Adam

okay, yeah. It's so interesting. How do you know anything about the relation? And I don't, I don't know anything about this, the relationship, historically, between, like, music and sex, because it seems like you know music is things that lots of different cultures do, like, probably all cultures. Obviously, I know in some cultures, it's less it's less popular, or whatever. And I'm kind of talking like human history, you know, like, I don't know anything about that, but you because you mentioned, like, drums and and, like the tribal history and stuff, I just wondered what you think about the long history of the relationship between music and sex.

Diana

Well, I don't know anything officially, but you know, if I think about it, I always think about those kind of drums, or even hand drums, or those sounds that would probably be used in, you know, tribes, and you know how energetic they are, and it's all about. Of energy, right? So that music, it triggers something in your body, and that energy, and sexual energy, and it depends on the sounds as well. Each sound is different. For me, drums can be very you know, the rhythm of it, right? You know, that's what I would, you know, think, where it would originate from, maybe. But yeah, yeah,

Adam

yeah, that makes sense. And I wonder about, just to get return to your theme of being non judgmental, I'm thinking about, I'm gonna think out loud now. So I don't know if this is going to make any sense, but let me try and say something, and then see how you respond to it. That like we can with when we see our each other's bodies or we hear each other, we, we, we automatically make certain judgments, you know, based on what the other person looks like or how they sound or whatever. And and then we also place this other layer of judgment or label on top by saying things like, I am a man, or I am gay or whatever it is. And then, and so the we're all the time kind of observing and creating these differences between each other. Like, I say I'm a man, and you say you're, you know, somebody a different gender, and whatever it is. And then with music, we can we we're feeling it in experiencing it and hearing it all in the same way. So it kind of, I guess my provocation is, or my my thought is that music helps to dissolve all those other things. It

Diana

definitely can. I think, you know, I started going out originally on the gay male scene, or, like, predominantly gay male and, you know, there are very few women there, usually, or even people identifying as women, yeah, all non binary people. You know, there's, it's just predominantly mask seen. And when, when I started going there originally, and I thought, Oh, well, that might be a good space as well for me to toy around with my masculine side and then try to express and then, you know, when I started doing this, and this was my process of, kind of like finding Who I am in London. Yeah, when, when I started doing that, all of a sudden, I started getting kind of like some feedback, or people started connecting with me in the different ways. And, yeah, you know, sometimes in those moments we were forgetting that. Oh, well, maybe this person generally fancies men, but, you know, in that moment, they would stop and dance with me and have that kind of connection that might be, you know, like semi sexual, but yeah, you know, it almost nothing mattered in that moment, because you're present,

Adam

that you're Yeah, you're present Exactly yeah, and you're having the connection without thinking about those labels and those categories and even like, like, what body each other has and stuff like that, 100%

Diana

100%

Adam

Can you say a bit more about those experiences on the gay male scene like that? Sounds like a positive one. Did you have negative ones too. Yeah.

Diana

I mean, when originally I started going out, it was definitely I. It benefited me in plenty of ways, and I will always be grateful, because it allowed me to grow as a person and just really find you know who I am and be, you know, have that space to express myself and express, maybe the more masculine parts of me. But over time, you know, I the scene is very like toxic in the way the toxic masculinity is so prominent there. And I think over time I just, I thought, you know, I needed more diversity. Yeah, even though it, you know, we had this moment together, you know, I evolved on the scene. But then, you know, when it was time to part, I thought, you know, this is a good time for me to move on. And definitely I started going out more on like a queer scene at the time.

Adam

And how did you how did you literally find the places to go to and the parties to go to? Because I think that's something that a lot of people struggle with, especially if you're like. New to a big city like London, you're like, Well, how do I know where to go and what, what to do? Oh, it's very hard, yeah, especially if it's underground, as you said, you know, it's different. It's

Diana

difficult, because you have to know people. And one of the things that I found when I was younger and I was living in South London, and you know how here we are, like, South, North, West, and every scene is different, and that's a whole different pack of its

Adam

like another label, yeah, exactly.

Diana

So I lived in South London, so the East London scene was where all the techno and all the queers are, you know, like, this, where it's happening, at least, it was really unaccessible for me, because, you know, I just was, I was living so far away, and I didn't have that many friends in the scene. And honestly, it took me, that's why it took me years, I think, to, like, kind of get on there and penetrate it. Because people, at the time, I thought I was just not fitting. I didn't feel like I fit in, and I didn't have any friends there. So now, what I really like if I see someone anywhere, you know, I could be like, just meeting outside for coffee or for friends or anything, and if I feel like they might benefit, or they don't feel like they fit in where they are at the moment, and they would like to be more part of a career center. I try to make as much effort as possible to kind of introduce, or, like, take someone with us, or, you know, invite them to the club if they, let's say, wanted to discover fetish, but never been to a club, and they've always had it on their mind, I would say, Please come with me, my partner. We you know, we will take you and you can have that experience. Yeah, because it's very difficult. Otherwise, you really have to know events or people. Yeah, you can go on RA, let's say, and scroll through there, but yeah, very difficult to find.

Adam

Yeah, no, exactly. I remember. I've got a good friend who we started going out to the kind of queer club, club nights that you're talking about some time ago, and it was, out of all the other friends that we had, we were the only two that were really interested in that. So we at least had each other. But he was like, um, kind of, like, really impossible to, I mean, he's great, but he it was impossible for me to, like, understand what his preferences were in music stuff. And so I was so I never any of my suggestions, what, for whatever reason he didn't like or he wasn't sure of, so I just like followed him because he was, you know, he was kind of in charge, and we had some good nights, but there was a lot of misses and as well, like, a lot of not great nights, or, I mean, not great club nights or energies or whatever, or just not very busy because the parties weren't really, you know, growing yet, or whatever. And, and I remember now I'm thinking about that and thinking, you know, you have to be prepared to have some nights that are like, not great, or, you know, just not the right music for you, and you basically have to, like, experiment and try a lot in order to and then you also, like, meet more people on the scene, and then you can refine and get closer to what you want to do, because they'll recommend something. So then you go with them and all of that stuff. It's like, I think that's part of the way that it becomes a community. You know, it was just us to going first of all without knowing very much, and then gradually meeting more people and getting a better sense of what's going on. So, yeah, you have to, you have to kind of do a lot of trial and error, I think.

Diana

And it's like, you know, the word of mouth and souls. But actually, going back to the difference between London and Berlin scenes, you know, also London is, I feel like the pace of the city is a lot faster than the first place. Berlin is more laid back. And, you know, club nights there generally, like, you know, you, they run maybe from Friday to Monday. Yeah, you, you never feel the pressure of, like, going out and having to, like, enjoy your enjoy your night in six hours.

Adam

Yeah, you know that's so London. I know it's

Diana

rushed. You're you're thinking, Oh, and

Adam

you're like, I've got to be having a great time by 2am because if not, then it's basically ruined. That's gonna be over. Yeah, yeah,

Diana

yeah. Whereas, you know, in Berlin, you can go out, and it could be a couple of sets that you didn't really enjoy. And then you'll have, like, you can chew in the garden, if it's summer, you know, chill with your friends. Have a cooked, I don't know, and then you're there, you know, like, dance for a few hours. And then, actually, I had, I need a break, I'll go. Sit for a few hours, you know? Or you can leave the club. Go, yeah, have a nap. Come back. Not

Adam

in London, you are not allowed to leave the club. When you're in, you're in,

Diana

yeah, not even going to the toilet or the smoking area. No chatting. I need to dance for six hours from beginning to end.

Adam

Yeah, exactly. It's such a weird culture that we have. I want to go into a bit more about sex and the club then, because you've mentioned a few times fetish clubs and and the fetish scene. And so we talked earlier on about the power of dancing and, you know, using a DJ set to create the atmosphere. And then, how is that different when it it, when it's a space which is explicitly like, about sex, and about, well, what is sex, right? But about like fetish. So tell, first of all, maybe define, for me, how you see a fetish night or a kink night, and how that's different from maybe the other nights that we've been talking about so far.

Diana

So definitely, you know, it's, it's more orientated around sex. So that's the predominant thing. You have music, which is extremely important still in those spaces, because, you know, if you don't have the right music, you're never going to be able to get into the sex aspect of it, because it's not going to make you feel relaxed, let's say, or in the mood. But you know, for me, you know, going to fetish clubs is, you know, the outfits. It's the you know, fetish outfits, when also you see others dressed, and there's a lot of effort, it's it, it also, you know, gets you in the mood. And it's, it could be really, you know, kind of rewarding as well. You're, you made an effort to dress up. Other people are dressed up and sexy, and everyone looks good. Also, having, you know, kind of, you know, usually a setup. There's different set setups in the club. There are a few nights in London, you know, well, one specific club which I played for last couple of times, and they, you know, mix kind of art, sex and techno, so or, you know, or music in general, like you have kind of an arty aspect to maybe the setup of a playroom, or certain kind of lighting, and everything is created in a way to get people into that sexy headspace. Yeah, I allow them to play. Yeah. I mean, for me, I love that. It's almost like walking into a Blade film. That's what I you know, like a Blade movie. The music has been again, and you're like part of the vampires or something, you know, yeah, long coat on. Oh,

Adam

they have those in the Matrix films as well, like that kind of So, okay, so if this is a scene, and we want more people to be able to have the sex that they want to have, because we're trying to create a free sex world, and as you said at the beginning, that means no judgment. I'm curious about this. There's a bit of a tension there between having no judgment, no labels, no categories, but then also saying on this particular scene, we wear these clothes or we spend this amount of money to look this particular way. So what do you think of that?

Diana

Yeah. I mean, for me, if it's fetish scene. I think fetish clothing is it's almost essential, because otherwise, without it, you're not going to feel again in that space. You know, it's not going to create the right atmosphere. But I know that fetish clothing is expensive. Let's, you know what? Let's go back a little bit, because what I think has happened on the scene, more so is when I started going out several years ago, I jumped onto the back end of the fetish scene. Then back then it's like the old fetish scene. I think there was, there was, there was a lot of sex, but there was, let's say there was predominantly fetish. Now, I think because it's, you know, so many more people are open to it, and maybe, maybe there is no need for this, for the Fetish anymore. It's, it's, it's still, it's kind of circle is more around sex, you know. So this sex is the main kind of reason, and then the everyone is dressed in the fetish clothing and having more sex. Sex is in like more physical sex, whereas before it was more fetish, as in fetish play, fetish. Right, you know the dynamics you know were strong. So you know the SM, the, whatever you know, all the, all the games that you kind of like have between two people that was strong in the scene, whereas now I think it, at least in my opinion, is a bit more sex orientated. So, yeah, having sex in fetish clothing is different still to fetish Yes, itself,

Adam

yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. Really interesting. That is definitely going to be one to watch, I think, and see how that continues to evolve. You know, because, like, still, some people say, like, Oh, we're in like, a golden era of fetish, where it's, like, quite mainstream and acceptable, as if they which might might be true, but also it's as if they never heard of Madonna in 1992 you know, when, where, where she was, like, really, taking fetish, kinky things and putting them into a fucking Madonna concert, you know, so, like, it seems to, it seems to go back and forth,

Diana

yeah, and actually, the Madonna’s, you know, the book, is it the same book? I don't know. Yeah, there's some amazing pictures there, yeah, like, I think women, or maybe lesbian that shaved head, Yeah, amazing, yeah. But you know, all this, like, for example, the clothing sometimes itself, and even though it's expensive, and you know, maybe not necessarily, that you need to have all these things is, but it will help you, maybe, to tap into that fetish persona. It's, you know, so if we're speaking about fetish rather than having sex in fetish clothing, and then it might be the thing that helps you tap into that, I don't know, personality that you're trying to express.

Adam

Well, everything is drag. Yeah, you know, we're born naked, and then everything else is drag, and the drag, whatever drag we choose on a day, helps us to be that version that we choose to be. Okay? So my final question is about the future world of free sex, which has this space that we've been describing, you know, the club and the the non judgmental aspect. So I'm just thinking now, if you were the Mayor of London, and I think you probably should be, by the way, then like, what changes would you make in order to, if you want, if I'm making an assumption here, but if you want to use the club to, like, create that world of free sex, like, what policy changes and economic changes and legal changes would you make as the Mayor of London to Give the club more power in making the free sex world.

Diana

I mean, I hope the Mayor of London is listening. Because, honestly, like, the the issues that have been going on on the scene is, you know, the people that promoters have been having just have been, you know, running a space or, you know, being able to have sex in space. It's incredible, yeah, and, you know, it's a real problem. Yeah, sometimes clubs are fighting over this for years. And for sure, one of the things that you know the government should look into is, you know, especially spaces for queer communities, because we're losing spaces all the time. And, you know, for queer, I mean, like alternative as well, not only spaces that belong to LGBT people, but people from Not, not from the mainstream, that really rely on those spaces to go and express themselves. They need to preserve the venues and just, you know, help promoters and club owners with licensing. And, you know, there's a, you know, a lot going on with the so called it's, there's a different name for it, but, you know, sex license, what people know this, which, you know, some clubs have been fighting for this for years, and there's, it's not really clear whether you should really have it or not, but I think for me, as as as we kind of evolve here in the London scene, it will be really important to have spaces for sex spaces or fetish spaces for people where you know you have a diversity of people, even where trans people feel comfortable, where to go explore and do whatever they want. Yeah, you have a few spots. Uh, like this already, but not as a I think, you know, you have small, dark rooms here and there, but not as a club itself. Yeah, and you know, where people feel free to go and express themselves without fear of being judged. And I think for people from non binary community and trans community. Maybe it's a bit more difficult, because the scene, majority of the scene is led by, you know, either people who are heterosexual or like cis, male, female, and then, you know, anyone in between doesn't really feel like comfortable enough to go and do whatever they want to do and have sex. Yeah, so, but the the venues are in a massive issue right now in London, and I think that's why, one of the reasons why everything is moving kind of really underground here, yeah,

Adam

yeah. Well, that's really interesting to hear, and it's something that I'd love to explore a bit more on free sex. I would love to have someone come on the podcast and talk specifically about sex licenses and what's happening there, and

Diana

I have a suggestion for you. Oh, okay,

Adam

so tell me when we're off, when we're when we're not recording, and then I'll hopefully be able to reach out to them, yeah, because I'm kind of interested in the legal technicalities of it, which is kind of nerdy, but it's really important. So that would be really interesting. I mean, just listening to what you were saying there about creating these spaces and what role the government might have, it's like, it's like, you're describing a community center, which you are in a way. And it's like, we think of, the we think the government should be providing community spaces for different kinds of communities, right? Like, it is a social responsibility that a government or a city should have to make community spaces for different kinds of people, whether it's like older people that want somewhere to go in the daytime because they're lonely and they want somewhere to go in the daytime. Like, we think the government should provide that space, or like child care centers, so that the children have somewhere to go if their parents are working or whatever. So we create those kinds of spaces for different parts of the community, but we don't usually see the government as having a responsibility to create a community space like the one that we've been talking about now for more than half an hour. You know,

Diana

they don't feel like it's important that they don't feel like it contributes to the economy. Hence, you know, all you know, why would we need a space like this? Yeah, yeah. Like, you know some of the, I mean, print works, let's say was a really commercial club, but let's say when you know they there was a story about it, you know, closing. And no one better than I did, because originally, after everyone, you know, after a while, everyone was like, wow, you can't close this. It's an iconic club, and so many people have traveled from Europe to, you know, go to Print Works, but no one got an eyelid about it closing originally, because they're like, well, it's just a club, and it's just a club, yeah, it's, you know, people just go there to, you know, let, let's say drink and whatever, you know.

Adam

But imagine if that was Chelsea Football Club. Can you imagine?

Diana

Oh, my God, right.

Adam

Okay, let's leave it with let's leave it right there. That's a provocation for for the rest of the day. Diana, thank you so much. It's been so great to speak to you.

Diana

Thank you for having me. I feel, really, you know, privileged and grateful that I heard so many podcasts this week that I was surprised and pleased that I was on the show.

Adam

Oh, my god, yeah, it's great to have you in the free sex crew.

—

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode!

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX - the idea or this podcast!

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x

Listen to this episode on your podcast player of choice.

Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith.

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex?

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome.

Let’s go!

Tash

You may be expecting Adam Zmith, who, of course, regularly presents Free Sex, but it's me. It's Tash. Tash Walker. I'm one of the exec producers on this podcast, also one of collaborators, but also a collaborator of Adam’s. And whilst doing many things, including hosting this brilliant podcast, Adam has been beavering away writing a book called Solemates: A History of our Fetish for Feet, and so in a very classic me way, I have decided to turn the mic on Adam without much preparation.

You know, seize the day, right?

Adam

Yeah, hello. Let's do it.

Tash

Hi, Adam, how you doing?

Adam

I'm all right. Thank you.

Tash

Are you ready? Are you here for this?

Adam

Okay, hit me.

Tash

So obviously I can't start this episode without asking you, what does ‘free sex’ mean to you?

Adam

I think because of what we're going to talk about in this episode, my answer today is that free sex means a world where people can suck each other's toes without shame if they want to. That's my answer. Okay, great.

Tash

Well, maybe jumping off of that, we could talk about your journey, okay, which is peppered in the book, right to feeling less shameful about your fetish. So I wanted to ask you first, do you feel that you can now explore your fetish without shame?

Adam

Yes, mostly, I think shame is always there. Isn't it like? I think if you have it like, which we all do in different ways and different levels, like, it's always there. And I think it's people say rightly, I want to get over my shame. I want to eliminate it. I want to be able to, just like, live without my shame about sex. And I think that's not really a feasible goal. I think it's about, it's like jealousy, it's like you can't really get rid of it. You can just find ways of reducing its impact on you, minimizing its presence in how you think and how you feel and how you behave. And I think shame is kind of the same thing. I guess the point of free sex as a kind of like philosophical experiment, which is what we do in this podcast, is to, like, imagine a world where those things are really properly eliminated, but in a way, it's like queer futures. It's like you're never there, you're never going to reach there, but the act of thinking about how is still beneficial. So that said, my shame about my foot fetish is never going to be 0% but it's about trying to get it down to the 5% level or whatever. And I would say that now for the most part, yeah, I can, like, if I'm hooking up with someone or having sex with someone, like, I don't feel bad or shamed about saying, like, Oh, you've got really nice feet. Or. Or can I play with your feet? And obviously they can say no, and that's also fine. I mean, if they were saying no in a shaming way, as in, like, Oh my God, that's disgusting, then that's a different conversation, whereas I, because I wouldn't love that. But also, I've just written a book about having a foot fetish, so that kind of forces it down, the shame down to 5% level, because people ask me questions. Because people ask me questions about all the time, yeah, like this, yeah. And I remember shining a light

Tash

in my eye. There was a book talk that you did, which I was at in the audience for and someone put their hand up and said that they felt that they felt a very active, present shame. How did it feel to hear that? And what did you say in response? Yeah,

Adam

that was actually the kind of moment that happens when you make a piece of work and you put it out in the world, and when you, like, engage directly, like, if you do a book and you do book events, like, there are those moments that happen and you're like, This is really, this is like a big deal that this is happening. It's only like a five minute exchange in a book event, but actually it's derived from these many, many hours of like spending time alone, thinking and researching and writing and fretting over whether you've got the book, whether you've got the text right, and whether you're doing the right thing by putting this out into the world. And so it's really nice to have those direct interactions with readers. And you'll know from our work with podcast listeners, people listen in isolation, and then when we meet them and they have a response like that, that's a really deep, personal response. It's really meaningful to you as someone who's making this kind of in an isolated way. So just on that level alone, this person was really engaging with the theme and the subject, and that was great, just on that basis. And in this particular case, because it was about feet, he was like, very present in his like, his shame was very present for him. And he was like, almost like, nervous to ask. He was physically kind of carrot. He was like, asking the question and talking about it, and I just felt like you've done an amazing thing for yourself by bringing yourself to this event, by buying this book, because you're trying to like, understand why you feel like this. And if you see that this book could maybe help you with that. Then I feel very, like, proud, I guess, that, like, that was happening, that he was hoping that that would happen. And I just remember saying, like, that's what we're here for. Like, you know, he because he was saying, like, how do I get over the shame or something? And it was like, well, by doing this, like, by reading about it, by talking to other people about it, by exploring it, by going to, in this case, like, foot fetish parties or something like that, if you can, or chat rooms, whatever, and like that's all you can really do, is just like, not push it away. Yeah,

Tash

there's something that I'm thinking about which is around that how shame thrives within isolation, and part of a way to combat it is to find others who have similar feelings, fetishes, experiences, tastes, desires to you, and I'm thinking about that in the context of what free sex means to you and what this book is on that journey, which is you taking ownership of your fetish and the shame that you have felt at higher amounts in the past to now and and wondering about part of that, part of your journey to eradicate shame being or to eradicate a world which has shame when it comes to foot fetish is to dive straight into it and towards it and to find those connections in others. And by default, shame starts to fall away. Because if so many of you are experiencing some similar, or you know, aligned desire, then immediately, what does shame base itself on?

Adam

Yeah, exactly. What does it have to grip into Yeah, but I think that we have to also hold space, as they say, for those people who enjoy

Tash

Yes, shame I was going to talk about that. Oh, okay, no, no, there you go.

Adam

Well, the there is a that's a desire, that's a legit desire that you might get off on chain. Hello, Catholics. Hello, me. Yeah. I was not gonna name any names, but like, yeah. Like, you know, I just saw the film, baby girl, and you think it's about a DOM sub relationship, but it then it moves into this realm of, like, Actually, she's getting off on risk, not on the power dynamic she's getting off on, the fact that she's taking a risk, and that's the principle of her desire. There are other thoughts and feelings about that film and whether it's successful in exploring that. I'd love to talk to someone about it on the podcast, actually, but risk is a thing which isn't really a big part of my sex drive. And. Shame isn't part of the big part of my sex drive. Like, for me, my best sex is when I don't feel shame, yeah? Whereas for some people, like, that's a kink that's a desire in and of itself, that, like, they want to explore that, and it's useful to them to do that and to feel shame and to feel dirty and to feel bad, and that could be hot for some people, yeah,

Tash

totally. But I guess the difference is, is that they are consenting to the shame. Yeah, they want it. That's true. And that's where we see the

Adam

differentiator, whereas I'm not consenting to the shame that was put inside me for being gay and then for being kinky about feet like that was things that other people in society was like putting into me, yeah? And my journey is about like trying to get rid of

Tash

that, I guess, yeah, and that brings me on something else I wanted to ask you about is to look back over the last 10 years and how much more you have become, so much more open and sort of your work has become a lot more focused on your identity and your sexuality and your desires that there is a claiming of the shame and a sort of, I don't know, wrangling with it to rinse it like a towel of every drop. What is it do you think that drove you to that, and what has changed for you in your pursuit, really, of a of a free sex the more free sex world? Yeah,

Adam

well, I think it a friend said this to me last night, which was really observant. He's a sort of relatively new friend, compared to you. You know, you've known me for a longer time, and that's why you're asking this question, yeah, aware of this, like, 10 year journey, but he's a relatively new friend. And he just sort of said to me, this is gonna sound way darker and dramatic than it was, and it was just like on the street outside of pub. But he was like, you know, I I can tell from a few of the things that you said, that you say that you carry quite a bit of regret, and that's heavy. And I don't disagree with him, like, that's right, and so I do think that part of my motivation is to, I guess, somewhat carry that regret, and I guess try to get over it, and try to make try to make sure that I enable other if I'm doing work about this, like making a free sex podcast. It's about, like, trying to make sure that other people have less of the reason to have regret, yeah, and then if they do have regret, than to find ways to carry it and get over it in a way that like, that's what I'm trying to do as well. Yeah. So that's why I wrote soulmates, a book about my fetish for feet, because it's hopefully gonna, first of all, it helps me to like process my regret at not having explored that sooner, and in a similar way, my regret about not exploring my sex life full stop and being gay sooner, but then also to like assist other people to To do it when they're ready to do it, like maybe sooner than what otherwise they would be held back. Yeah, totally.

Tash

I guess it goes back to that point of shame, shame, thriving in isolation, yeah. And by doing this work, you know, you make contact, you interview people, you're connecting with people, and that then helps others who are maybe in the place that you were 10, 15, 20 years ago. Feel that longer legacy of connection. Maybe it's a bit of a fetish ancestry.

Adam

Well, yeah, I mean, it's kind of I found myself in a conversation the other day where someone said to me, they knew it was a book about feet, and they said to me, what is the book? And I said, Well, it's a history book, actually, you know, the subtitle is a history of our fetish for feet. And it was like, because of that question, I had to remind myself that it was a history book. And then I was like, Why did I write it as a history book? Like, why is it a history book? Why isn't it a personal why isn't it a guide, a how to or, like, how to suck toes, or, why isn't it a, I don't know, like a poetic representation of my experiences or something. Why is it a history book? And obviously, you and I make a lot of history work together. It's a big part of what we do, especially podcasts. And I think it's, it's, it's because of what you know as well as I do, which is that sometimes it's easier to talk about something in history, and it's easier to help someone understand where they are now, if you distance a little bit from the contemporary moment, yeah, and the contemporary experience of a person, and you find these links in history, And then they can see in, it's almost like in in in relief, they can see themselves in this different way and by a certain distance, and they're able to observe that. And then, if they feel that connection, and that strength of connection to that, then then they can then start to like, see their. Contemporary moment and their contemporary experience, whereas if you spoke directly to them about their situation now, they might not necessarily do that. So that's why we work in history. I think, if I'm right, yeah, and it's why this book ended up being a history book, and rather than a, like a how to Yeah,

Tash

it's reminding me it's this very me thing to say of diving into, like a foot fetish see that you're like, jumping into something that you realize you are just one part of something so much bigger. Yeah, and there is comfort, yeah?

Adam

And I wanted to do that because a lot of people, I mean, it's like, any kinks, you know, like, there are specific kinks and fetishes and sexual practices that, like, literally do emerge in a particular moment in time, which might be to do with technology. For example, like, probably there's people now with kinks about certain kinds of photo sharing, like disappearing photos, I don't know. Like that might be. People might get off on the disappearing nature of a photo that shared in WhatsApp or something, and like that just didn't exist 10 years ago or five years ago. So like, there are specific sexual desires that, like, emerge in a particular moment. But with feet, it's because it's part of your body. It's not a new invention, or it's not even a political or social construct, like, it's just like a thing in your body. So like, Actually, I wanted to say that, like, feet have always been there, and that's a big part of the book, and why it's a history book, is like feet have always been part of our bodies, and therefore we have always had desire for them, just like other parts of our bodies. So it's worthwhile just recognizing that, that in this particular case, with this particular fetish, that, like, it goes back a long way. And so therefore if shame does come up, it's like, well, that's an imposition, yeah, someone put that in, yeah, oh yeah. Someone's invented that, someone's created a church and come up with that, or someone's created a policy, or someone's whatever, yeah, you know, this is just a part of our body, just like, you know, same sex desire, whatever. It's just like, well, we've always had these bodies, and we've always done these things with them. Go, this

Tash

is, yeah, absolutely going into the what you've touched on already as the, you know, the history element of it, the foot fetish, has always happened. And then what you were saying about certain moments in time allowing for certain fetishes to arise. There was the bit in the book which really struck me when you wrote about the historical rise in foot fetishes at times in history when the when STDs were higher or more prevalent and people turning to feet instead. And when I read that, it made me think about how the foot or the foot fetish is often categorized today as dirty or shameful, like we're talking about, and yet at that time, people turned to it because they saw it as being the opposite. So they turned away from the dirty Act of, you know, penetrative sex, for example, STDs, and they turned to the feet instead. And I was really struck by that. I thought that was really interesting.

Adam

That's one point. I should have added that concept, because that's a good point,

Tash

yeah? But, I mean, yeah, there's a flip, but it didn't last, yeah, because the STD went down. But it made me wonder about who you know this idea of shame, and if we can really lean into it, shaming someone being also some kind of a fetish that people like to do and that we know that goes outside of sex, sexual practices and becomes a power play in lots of other parts of our life, and this actually control but I wanted to just pick up on another, on one of the characters, or one of the people that you interview in the book, read because and it links to what we're talking about, shame. But I really love the bit where read unpacks their history around the disgust at foot fetishes, and when they lent into it, they thought they were, they saw what they were suppressing these wonderful written desires. And since they did that, this whole world opened up. And I wanted to ask you, why? Why we do that? Why do you think we do that? Because it's, it's so it's, it's not just, I feel this fetish, and here's a shame about that fetish. This was so circuitous that the shame, or whatever had been put upon Reid was so strong that reed felt discussed to it and couldn't even connect that to desire.

Adam

Wait, so is the question like, why do some people make other people feel shit about themselves, yeah,

Tash

I guess so, I guess so. But also, like this power to such a to such an extent that you might not even recognize that this is something that you're desiring.

Adam

Yeah, what Reid was like so influenced by this shame that had been put in her that she repressed Yeah. How does i Yeah? Which is, which connects with me? Because, you know, although I knew I fancied boys, like my actual sex drive towards them was like, a lot lower through my 20s when. I wasn't having sex because I think I was repressing that desire. And then when I started having sex, I had more sex drive, which may be an obvious thing, but I think it's, it's really, like, honestly, like, I can't, like, I can't remember that much about how I felt about having sex before I was having it, because I think I was just, like, blocking it out a lot, which is, I think what she says that she was doing about feet for quite a bit. And, yeah, I guess people just want, we want power over each other, and not only in a hot way, like in a bad way, like, it's what politics is all about, we want to tell people what to do. We think that we've got the right idea, and I think that that means that we somehow create different rules and norms about what desires you should have and shouldn't have. And then that can be really, really strong, that it affects how we think about ourselves, when we when we're swimming in that kind of soup.

Tash

Yeah, so damaging, I think, yeah. And when you think about it, that, I suppose it's that full circle thing, isn't it? That, like the feeling of recognizing a fetish or a desire and holding space for that is so close to thinking that it's absolutely disgusting. You would never go near it, but there's just like a beat between the two, and it's like the flip of it, and it makes me think about capitalism.

So Reed is a sex worker who is someone who makes foot content for her clients as well as other things, and I know that we often talk about capitalism, I mean, who isn't these days, and how we can exist within that society. So I'm interested in what your thoughts are on the existence of fetishes, and in this case, foot fetishes in a capitalist world. So what I'm thinking is, do you think there is a role that capitalism can play in advancing our acceptance of fetishes and kinks more, therefore reducing the shame, or does the very nature of capitalism need the Fetish to remain shameful to be able to keep selling it at a price.

Adam

Okay, well, there's lots of comp layer, complicated layers to this question because, but my first thing is to say that you're, you're kind of placing an anti capitalist in the position of giving a vote for capitalism. Because, actually, what's happened in the past few years, because a lot of people have been making foot content and able to sell that directly, like through only fans, including read that there has been a de stigmatizing, de shaming period around feet that we're in, and that has been going on for the past few years now, and I think that so on the one hand, that is because of capitalism, because this is like a commodity that people are able to exploit and buy and sell and trade and stuff like that, Which I'm not the kind of anti capitalist that's like, against somebody owning something and then someone else being able to buy that thing. It's about the concentration of power and wealth. That's the problem in capitalism. I think so. Like, you know, you own your feet, like, you take some photos of your feet and then you sell those photos. Like, I don't have a problem with that, but it is also taking place in a capitalist system, you know, with with consumer system actually. But I do think that the proliferation of foot videos and foot content, which is partially driven by only fans, and by the fact that it is actually compared to other things, like a relatively easy thing, easy sex content to make and relatively easy sex work to do that, that that has actually led to quite a significant de shaming and de stigma, which is great. So it's not every day that I say go capitalism, but in a small way, I guess I am saying that there, because it's also something that you see a lot online, in the discourse about feet is, feet often turn up. Foot fetish is often turn up, as in, like, articles about, you know, this housewife makes 4k a month selling foot picks. And there's loads of these articles. I see them all the time, and I think that there's a lot more of those kinds of articles about feet than there is about like this housewife makes 4k a month from, I don't know, farting in a jar and hurling it, which, that's what some people are doing, including read. So there's something about feet that like, somehow like attracts that kind of interest and discourse. And again, that's happening within capitalist thing, because even those kind of articles kind of articles about like getting our attention onto the internet, onto these articles, onto social media, is also a product,

Tash

yeah, capitalism, and it's interesting what you were saying about the ease at which it is your one is able to make content for only fans and then sell it. Because that in itself is repositioning. Positions of power into, but spreading it a lot more across society. But yeah, and I guess, I guess we've been talking a lot about fetishes here, and maybe it's helpful for us to take a step back for a second, a step back. Yeah. And there's a section in the in the opening chapter of your book that I want to just highlight now and dig into, into with you. So I bought my copy of the book to do that for the audio. Okay, so I'm looking on. It's the very beginning. It's page three, and maybe I'll just, I'll just read it, and then I'll talk to you about what, what I think is interesting around it. So you say, when I did start to get naked with men, I secretly looked at their feet. One of them was an amateur Acrobat who moisturized his souls at the end of every day. He must have seen me watching him doing this one time I have to keep my feet tip top, he smiled. The fact that he cared about his feet gave me permission to say how much I liked them. It's openness like this that has led me to seek out experiences and take risks in pursuit of pleasure. I am promiscuous because I am curious. I've had adventures. I've learned how I fancy bodies, their smells, their holes, their warmth and their electricity. I've sniffed armpits and pissed on people. I've fucked in public. I've dropped to my knees so I could beg for come. I've kissed four people at the same time. I've had to stop when the oxytocin made me shake. I've been someone's good boy. I've hugged all night. And so this is what I want to talk to you about. It's kind of funny having that read back to you, yeah, well, staring deeply into your eyes Adam. And I love this for lots of reasons, but one of the most important is that, without implicitly saying it, you are challenging the definition of what sex is here. Okay, yeah, so can you talk to me about what sex is to you? Well,

Adam

you know, what? If soul mates was able to be a bigger, longer book, I would have written a whole chapter about this, I think, like it is there as a theme in the book a little bit, but it doesn't really get into it, and I'd love to. So thanks for the question. And if anyone wants to commission me to write an essay about this, then I will.

Tash

This was not a setup.

Adam

So I think there's something interesting about the way that we think about sex, and it's quite narrow. And I think fetishes show up the narrowness of the way that we think about sex quite well, because fetishes often don't involve, I mean, almost by definition, but not usually, but like they don't often involve penetration, and they don't often involve procreation and so and they often don't involve genitals and probably other things as well. But I think all of those three things are the things that we think about when we think about sex. And probably, if you look at up in the dictionary, it probably says, it probably includes some of those things, if not all of them. And so I think fetishes are just, they're in this weird zone of like, they're like, definitely sex, but then also not sex, because, you know, it's like, well, it's not involving your genitals. But then, if I went into work on on a Monday morning and said, Oh, I was like, sucking someone's toes on Saturday night, they would be like, Oh my God. Like, no sexual content in the office. Yeah. On the other hand, you know, if I said, Oh, I have a I have a partner, and I have a sexual partner, and all we do is suck each other's toes and he's my husband or whatever, and they would be like, Oh, wow. So you don't really have sex with your husband, just so, like, which one is it? Yeah, is it better? Not sex? And I think that's the same with, like, lots of other Fauci it's like, piss play or even BDSM that doesn't involve, you know, penetration. And so I just think that there are these really big questions about what sex is, and I think there are, I think of it as like a way of experiencing your body to give you pleasure, and that can be alone or with one or more other people. And you might say, well, going with a friend to a cake shop and eating carrot cake together is sharing a moment of bodily pleasure, which is true. And maybe carrot cake is sex, but I don't know. So maybe I need to refine that definition, but I just think of it as, I guess, that's putting something external in. But then maybe a fetish also sometimes includes something external, like a whip or something. So I don't know. I guess I'm just asking these questions. And I think that I was what I wanted to imply in the book, is that question of, like, well, is footplay really sex? I think I guess the I guess it's with this project, at least, like, it's enough to just ask that question to leave the reader with that question hanging in their minds to think, Okay, well, if I want to do this, how does that sit on a spectrum of what I think sex is and what I'm, what I desire, and stuff like that, and that just or if you're thinking like that, then you're just, in my opinion, you're like, already at the free sex party, in a way, because you're like, thinking reflectively about what this is and what you want to do, and yeah, what might be stopping you and things like that. Interesting,

Tash

making me think about what's coming next in your free sex pursuit, or a world where free sex is fetch, or people are being able to engage with their fetishes without shame, which makes you think back on your first book, deep sniff, which I loved. It's iconic past the poppers always. And there's obviously before I ask about the future, maybe it's it's helpful for us to go back and to you to look back at Deep Sniff in retrospect. Having written Solemates, I'm interested in the comparisons between deep sniff and soulmates in terms of your process, but there is a connector between the two of them that feels like there is a journey or a you know, I don't know how long it will be, a trilogy, maybe longer, of a question that you're asking here, what do you think that is?

Adam

Well, I definitely have. Well, there's the book that I'm working on with you, which is separate, but within this, like sex thing of deep sniff and soulmates, there is definitely one more book which would be like a trilogy, is how I conceive of it. There's another book that I want to do again, which is a different and which is in a different column. So there is another book in a trilogy, but it might be a trilogy of four, if that other one changes, that becomes part, but it's very queer of you. Adam, yeah, I think wasn't, wasn't there like an alien? There's a joke about their alien movies being a quadrology of five. Anyway, before they started all these modern ones. The was,

Tash

well, it's what, what am I doing? Yeah, through this What's indeed, snare, flick varies through into So, I mean,

Adam

it's about allowing yourself for permission to explore your pleasures and your desires like, That's it, and that's why the third book that I'm imagining, which I don't have a proposal for yet, and don't have a publisher for anything, but, like, I know what it would be in the setup, and that is a part of that same investigation and campaign, I Guess, to the extent that a book is campaigning Yeah. So it's a Yeah. It's about Yeah, de shaming, destigmatizing. I also think Deep Sniff is a bit of a queer theory book, if I can say so, because it's about changing the reader's concept, or opening up and expanding the reader's concept of, like, what gender is and what sexuality is, and what their body is and what it's capable of, that it's not only this mechanical thing. You know, Deep Sniff is kind of, like, I don't know, in some ways, like, a bit spiritual, in a way that people get with through drugs, like, you get kind of like this transcendental thing. You get this thing of like, well, I feel connected to the universe. And so deep sniff kind of goes there, but with poppers, and so it's a bit more about like, yeah, that sort of like different concept of sex and bodies and soulmates. You know, literally doesn't have as much space as Deep Sniff did. It's a short book, but I think by implication of the way that it's treating feet and the way that it's doing things like what you said in the last question about the way that it's seeing questioning what sex is, it's it's still doing a similar thing, in that sense, it's like opening up what you think your body is capable of, less so about what you think your body actually is, which deep sniff is more about. Can be a bit can be read in that way. It's a bit more about, like, well, what even is a body? What is your body? But that's like I said, like, that's a bit queer theory. And I try not to be theoretical in my writing, even if it's based on theory that I've read and enjoyed. So it might not be that present for some people when they read it. And what's the third? The third is, well, I do want to write a book about monogamy from the point of view of an outsider, and which is me, so I I'm not monogamous. I've never been monogamous. I've only ever had one relationship, and it wasn't monogamous. And it's just always struck me that, like I've always kind of found even before I knew the words like polyamory or ethical non monogamy, way before I knew those i. I had these like questions about, why do people live in this way, in this monogamous way? And also, like, I find it really deeply troubling to me, because it feels very dishonest in a way that it's settled, because the fact is that even the most, even the people who are in a monogamous relationship, and who actually are faithfully faithful sexually, like they have desires outside of their relationship. So to some to somehow, like, disavow even those desires, nevermind not prosecute them, not do them like, is weird to me, and in a lot of relationships, it's kind of, it's like, verboten to talk about your desires for another person, for fear that means that you actually are fucking that other person, yeah, as well as people actually being unfaithful and dishonest and stuff which I don't like. So what I'm saying is, I've loved poppers for a long time, and it's helped me to think about things. I've loved feet for a long time. It's helped me to think about things. And I've been slut for a long time, and it's helped me think about things. Therefore that is a reason for me to think, okay, there's a book length project in that. And so yes, it's about sex, but it'll also be about relationships, yeah, which is also something that I don't really seem to do. So it's never with friends, yes? I mean, like big R relationships. So yeah, that was, that's what I want to do. So it's a, it's a project that I have this year, not to write that book, but to, like, make sure that I spend time with that idea, to think about it, to read about it, to interview people. So there's going to be people on free sex this year, actually, who I'm interviewing as part of that, like, research, okay, for that book, and so that hopefully at some point I'll have enough thoughts about it and enough inputs about it that I can actually, like, write a proposal and then try and sell that to a publisher.

Tash

Which brings me to probably what will be my final question. But before I ask that question, just going to this idea on the book of monogamy from an outsider's perspective, and when you're talking about, you know, it's very thought police, isn't it? Like, how dare you even think of another person? It's like, we all, we, all, the majority of people, have desired thoughts, whether you're in a monogamous relationship or whatever. And to deny that is shameful is shame making it's exactly the same thing as what we are talking about when it comes to, it's true foot fetishes, to fetishes or to what you think, yeah, what a free sex world means to you, which is everyone can explore their fetishes without shame. Yeah,

Adam

because, and actually, like, what I know from, and you'll probably know from, like, queer couples or queer relationships, is because, by default, the members of that of those relationships have a much higher likelihood of having put through some shame, yes, so that by the time they arrive in that relationship, they're a bit more aware of what shame is, and they've somehow processed it. And so I know that it's much more likely that within a queer relationship for people to be talking about their outside desires than it is in a non queer relationship, correct? Like queer couples that I know they talk about, well, I just fancy that waiter who's serving as our romantic dinner, like they talk about that in a way which is generally, on average, much more easy and much more frequent than, like a straight couple, where it's like, why are you looking at the waiter like that?

Tash

No, so, yeah, it's so, so true. And I think it's interesting, because then maybe there's also another thing, and I'm sure you'll do this with people that you'll speak to and that you'll look into when you are pursuing this book further. But it is like that differentiation of the definition of monogamy, and then what may be perceived to be monogamy, which is like, you can't have desire for anyone else, versus a monogamous relationship in that you don't have other sexual partners, but maybe you have connections. And you know, where's the line drawn on sexual monogamy and emotional intimacy and all of

Adam

that stuff. What does it mean for friendship? I mean, it has to be a book about friendship as well. Yeah, friends of friends, fucking friends, not even fucking but like, Oh, God, it has to be, you know. But some of the, you know, my, my personally, like my greatest romances, have been with friends, yeah,

Tash

also the idea, which is, again, anti cis-het, monogamy, nuclear family, which is that, well, the reality that one person cannot be everything for anyone, yeah, and so many people think of their partner like, I know, which is why it's like, I think throttling of our suffocating, but that's the world that we for failure, yeah, but that's also the world that we have, like, pushed against the, you know, the constraints of as queer people so strongly because, yeah, it's just, it's gonna make us drown and suffocate. So my last question is sort of looping it back in a way that you just did anyway to this podcast to free sex, and I'm interested to know as your exec producer, No, I'm joking as like, what is it that this podcast has helped you understand about the. Idea and the concept of free sex, which is fascinating. You've spoken to so many interesting people with such really informed, intelligent and varied opinions on that one question, how, how does it, how do those conversations shape you and your your work and your thinking?

Adam

Oh, definitely. I mean, it's really amazing to be able to have these conversations with people, people who I like, already know and admire and want a reason to talk to them, because I love conversation. Like, for me, conversation is sex, like we're having sex in a way. And so, like, like, good conversation, yeah. So, yeah. So to have a chance to speak to people deeply about something that, like I'm interested in, and we can, we can go deep on that, even if it's only for 45 minutes or whatever, is, like, really amazing. And so either people that I already know or know of, or people that I like find through this work and what people are recommended to me. And I'm like, wow, I wouldn't have met you or known you otherwise, but I'm talking about it. So it's just really, really nice to be able to do that. And then I guess the subject matter of sex, and this concept of free sex, it's just seems to be that the more I talk about it with people, the more we explore it together, like you said, the more different opinions and perspectives are in it, and the more complicated it is. And it makes me think sometimes I feel very like narrow in my in my work, like I feel quite niche, because the work that we do together is like LGBTQ+ stuff, slash history of that, yeah, which is like niche and niche. And then there's this other column that I work in, which is like sex and sex history and sex politics, which is also quite niche, you know. And I don't mind that, because these are my interests. These are my interests now, like, maybe in 10 years time, I'll be writing books about model boats, and that would be lovely, but these are my interests now, so I don't mind being that niche, but I also kind of stress out about it sometimes, because I'm like, is it too neat? First of all, like it means I can only reach a certain number of people, yeah. And actually, if I care about this thing, I need to find a much more clever way about how to do this thing, but in a bigger way, like in a more approachable way, or whatever. But all of that said, the fact is, the more I talk to people about sex and free sex, the more I realize it is a fucking big thing. Yeah, and I can spend the next 50 years and I will, won't scratch the surface, and so maybe, therefore that's okay, that that's my lane to be working in, and it means that free sex can go for another 50 years, which is nice to be working on something that has this capacity, you know, that it's nice to be like, you know, I guess, as an interior designer, walking into a walking into an aircraft hangar, and saying, like, Okay, I forgot, yeah, I've got the rest of my life to work on this.

Tash

I also think Adam that the concept of free sex is a question, or the question, what does free sex mean to you? Is a question that every person could be asked. And ultimately, you know the people that you speak to could be limitless and what you're doing and those like you within the sex positive, sex curious world and work of this sort, writing books, doing podcasts, and the people that you interviewed, is trying to push those boundaries to show more people that actually this could be part of them too. Yeah. And ultimately, we are moving in a direction it feels like it, yeah, where you know, like what we were talking about with only, only fans. More and more people are starting to acclimatize to their own desires and become less shameful. So ultimately, the sky's the

Adam

limit with three sex limit, yeah? Well, mile high club. Yeah, it's been

Tash

so I love this, yeah, hurry up and write another book so I can come back on and interview you about that.

Adam

Hurry up and write a book. Funny.

—

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode!

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX - the idea or this podcast!

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x

Listen to this episode on your podcast player of choice.

Adam

What does free sex mean to you?

Do you ever think you’d have more sex, or better sex, if only you could change one thing? What is that thing? 

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith. 

I’m a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? I’m on a mission to find out how, as a society, we hold each other back in sex. What could a world of ‘free sex’ look like? 

For me: free sex is a world with more places to fuck AND without sexually transmitted infections. How bout you? What you into?

Every episode I speak to a different human with a unique idea for what free sex could mean.

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome. 

Let’s go! 

—

Adam

Liam Wignall, welcome to Free Sex.

Liam  

Thank you for having me. How's your mother? 

Adam  

She's a bit grumpy, but that's, that's just a, you know, just a normal Monday for here - I'm sure it's the heat. It's the heat moving very swiftly on from my mother, because of what we're going to talk about, I really want to know from you, how do we get to a world of free sex? What do we need to get to a world where people can have the sex that they want? 

Liam  

We need to be more open and honest about our interests, our sexualities. We need something like a pair of glasses that you can wear, you look at somebody, and if you both, I don't know, you both consent on a little button on the side of your glasses. You see what this person is into. You see their interests. You see what they're looking for. And you just realise that other people have a range of sexual interests. In the way that you do that, there's niche, there's overlap. There's Yeah, the just kind of breaking down barriers. 

Adam  

Yeah, breaking down barriers. So, okay, so this is a sort of huge innovation. They're sort of like X ray truth specs that reveal our own desires and interests, so that we can just see how freaky everyone else is. Why do you think that would be important then?

Liam  

Well, part of, I think some of the problems around and, you know, I'm a kink researcher, so I'm in that kind of sexual subculture world, and interview people who have these interests, and one of the problems I I see within society is stigma related to sex and sexuality. And this kind of stigma related to sex is simultaneous to individuals having different sexual interests. So we know from research that like 40 to 70% of people have desires or report desires related to kink. We see when people start to kind of engage in them, that percentages go down, but you know that initial interest is still there, and there's a bunch of reasons why people might not engage in kinks, such as being in a monogamous, non kink relationship, different kind of overlaps between between interests and not finding somebody. But the point is, we don't discuss these like sex is a personal thing, right? You know, for some people, rightly so, I'm, I'm a bit more open in terms of chatting about sex and research and sex, and I'm, I recognize I'm in a different world. But I do think there'd be some benefit coming from being more open and recognizing that we are, we are sexual beings with

Adam  

different so hang on a minute. We've had, like, 25 or 30 years of the internet now, and hasn't this done the job of what your X ray sex specs would do? 

Liam  

I will be trademarking. We can share 5050, yes, it has partly done that. And my research. That talks about kind of the transformative, not just me, but the transformative impact of the internet on sex and sexuality. It's allowed people to find others like themselves. It allows people to kind of forego geographical boundaries, but it can only do so much so to use me as an example. I grew up in Liverpool, and kind of a rough part of the city. Didn't know any kind of sexual minorities. Growing up round about, kind of 15, 16, 17, I had, you know, recognition I was different. And that came to, that came from kind of differences in sexual orientation. I was, I was gay and surrounded by heterosexuals, I was able to kind of use the internet as a tool to just speak to others like myself. And there were websites specifically for kind of 15, 16, 17, year olds, like the gay youth corner was one of them growing up, and that does step one of, oh, I'm not alone. There are other people who, who, who have sexual identities like me, who, who are like me. The next step though, in terms of and yes, I can meet up with people and go for coffees and potentially more once I'm 18 plus. But the next step of helping somebody feel comfortable when you're growing up in a heteronormative world when you're growing up with these kind of feelings of difference. I I talk about how wonderful the internet is, the fact that we can do this chat now, and the fact that we can still, kind of continually find people like ourselves and are and that kind of stuff. But it can only do so much. We need to recognize that the I think the next set of problems that need to be addressed are around social attitudes towards sex and sexuality, and they are changing. We're seeing evidence of kind of decreasing homophobia, legalization of gay marriage on and it's probably because of the people I follow, but on my Twitter, I saw Trans Pride in Brighton and Trans Pride in London. I was overwhelmed to see just that wonderful visibility. So we are having conversations about it, but you know, if you there are still kind of steps that need to be done. So for you know, the reason there's kind of such a good push for Trans Pride, etc, is because trans people are still not receiving the same societal benefits and don't have the same level of progress as, say, white cis gay men. So yeah, this is not an even thing, and it's so I'm waffling now. 

Adam  

I'll pass it to you know the I mean, the prevalence of shame and stigma is still so strong. I mean, it's such a common theme on this podcast. You know, so many guests on Free Sex talk about this. And also, at the same time, there are these markers and indicators, like you said about the change that, there have been changing attitudes, and the Internet absolutely has contributed to that. And so it's we're kind of like, live in this weird paradox, you know, where both of these things are true at the same time, don't we? I wondered if you could say a bit then about the work that you've done on the role of the internet in kinky communities, specifically, because you really, really looked long and hard and deep at that. So say a bit more about that then, because of the, you know, the real benefits of the internet, because I'm still trying to figure out, okay, well, what else do we gain by having more visibility than what would the Internet has? So what's the review of where we're up to so far with that?

Liam  

Um, so I think the Yeah, I write about this in my book, buy it now, where I talk about how in the digital age, that's a great question. I should have plugged the title, yeah. See, I'm just thinking about kind of anyway, kink in digital age. Yeah. I talk about how the Internet has been transformative for kink subculture and kink in general, for several different reasons. Back in kind of the the 90s, 80s, 70s, before that, kink was underground. It was niche. There were real consequences to identifying as kinky or being kinky, that you could lose your job, your children ostracised by society. At different points, it was seen as a form deviant, a form of mental illness. The point is, there were real consequences to being kinky and engaging in kink that led to kink being pushed underground. Rightly so. Like people have these innate interests, they want to engage in them, and they're not deviant in in the medical sense. Um. And they're not mentally ill, they just have different sexual interests. Fast forward, the internet came along, and it provided a way for people to potentially connect with others who shared those similar interests. Because if you're grown up with a real interest in in bondage that you don't know where this come from. You've got no one to explore it with. You know, it's an integral part of who you are, or a fetish like feet, or something like that, that you grow up and kind of, you know, you've got this interest, it could be potentially difficult to explore it with just a general hookup or even a partner. You're disclosing something really personal and potentially, what if they're not into this? You know, we're in a monogamous relationship. How they're going to explore that? The Internet, one of the big things it did was allow people to connect with others who were like themselves. Obviously, I'm mainly going to talk about kind of the positives of the internet, but there's, you know, consequences of that as well. In terms of you create profiles on these different websites, your details could be leaked. And there's still kind of privacy issues. The yeah, there's still privacy issues. Sorry, I'm not going off on a tangent in my head. You can cut this bit out. 

Adam  

I know that you've looked at pups a lot, and that's a kind of case study, and it did that. Do you think that the community of pups and that particular kink, if that's what it is like, wouldn't have wouldn't be where it was today without the Internet? Is that something that was kind of really grown and developed? 

Liam  

Because, yeah, like, if you, if you fast forward from, like, the initial online forums of like FetLife and other kind of niche, niche websites to kind of in the last eight or so years, when, when pub play, claim, pub play came along. It wasn't from what I could have, what I observed. It wasn't coming from kind of normal, traditional routes that people weren't, you know, yeah, it wasn't coming from these routes. The thing that kind of really helped pub play take off was Twitter or X, where these pubs will create an online profiles on these websites, on Twitter as kind of an alt account with a different face picture, a different about me section, and a different way of using it that they would almost use it as a normal social media account, but for their pop identity. So it's all, you know, I'm at the weekend. I'm going to this pop event. Is anyone going to be there or connect and develop, making friendships, kind of through, through the website, through Twitter as well. And I partly think that is to do with the demographic of people who engage in put play that it's a younger cohort. It's a gateway kink. It's kind of how some participants describe it. So these individuals who grew up alongside technology were like, why would I want to go to an online forum, website which served its purpose and still does to older individuals in the key community and younger ones? But they were like, you know, this doesn't have an app on the phone. Why not just use something like Twitter, which I can have multiple accounts, and I already know how to use it, so I think that was kind of some of the push. And now we're seeing examples of Kinkstagram websites, of people creating Instagram pages specifically for personas. And every other I literally saw this morning Kesha talking to enjoy riders and performance. So before pubs on stage, there's just like this blending of of social media, of of pub slash kink, which you know as a tangent, sort of makes sense, because kink has always been there in pop culture. Yeah. Rihanna. S&M, Madonna is kind of a Madonna, other example, 50 Shades of Grey, love, love, that. Love that. 

Adam  

But one of the things that make you make me think about when you talk about these alter like alt profiles, alternative profiles that people have for them, for their different kink identities, is that, obviously, that is part of a long tradition of people keeping their sex life or their kink life, separate from every other part of their life, which, for sometimes it might be stigma and shame, and for sometimes it just might be that's part of the enjoyment for some people and things like that. And I wonder whether, with your idea of having glasses that reveal everyone's interests and desires and kinks, therefore, what do we lose by having that. And obviously, I know that it's just a gimmick. You're not, you're not actually inventing these glasses, but, but they are trademarked, but it's a useful way it was thinking about this, isn't it? Because it makes us think what we would gain and what we would lose if and whether these glasses would be a step on the world to free, a free set, you know, on the way to a world. Lot of free sex. So, like, we would lose kind of that chance, wouldn't we, of keeping these things separate? 

Liam  

But the like, they're kind of a metaphor for, let's how, yeah, we we find it difficult to potentially communicate what our sexual interests are, particularly if they're more niche, something like the glass extra glasses. If both people consent and allow for that, would, you know, potentially speed up the process of reducing stigma, it would allow that level of like, oh, it's, you know, balloon animals, okay, I you've got that niche interest that sounds fun, and I'm not into that, but I'm into I'm really into plants in the bedroom or food in the bedroom. I've got plants in front of me, hence that example, but like a recognition, and I think through a level of increased visibility, that is a reduction in stigma, there's a reduction in the sensational, sensationalist aspect of it, I completely agree, though, like, There's something so fun about exploring what another person is into, kind of in the moment. And yeah, you know, in these examples, we're thinking consensually, but like exploring like, Oh, do you like this? Shall I do it? Yeah, shall I do a bit more? You like it when, yeah, that that's, that's hot, that's erotic, that's arousing. Um, if people feel comfortable enough to do that, brilliant, what? Yeah, I, I see that. And you know, for your other points around, maybe some people don't want to work ink on their arm and that kind of stuff 100% like, yeah, sex should be a private thing, if that's what people want. But there should also be a recognition that if something like like a kinky individual who is in a 24/7 power exchange relationship, and they engage in their kink in a way that is an integral part of who they are, that they it's it's part of their family in terms of, like they create the queer family. It's part of the relationship. It's, you know, they should feel comfortable enough to do that in, yeah, in a more visible way, even if it's just wearing a chain around their neck, a hanky in the back pocket, something that you know, maybe me or you might walk down the road and be like, I know what that means, good for them. Love that, right? Yeah. But you know, before we even get to that stage, before we even get to the glasses of like, looking at each other, we just need to recognize that, particularly in the UK, we are so bad at talking about sex,

Adam  

yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Communication is another huge topic, and I wonder whether your I've got a new name for them, XXX, Ray specs would just jolt people in the UK and in other places and individuals who are a bit more coy, and jolt us into talking about it, because you walk into a meeting with your boss and you can see that he's into ropes, and he's a he in this example, and you just see that immediately. And so, yeah, he's, you're about to negotiate a pay rise with him. But it's just useful that you know that he's into ropes,

Liam  

that if you, if you knew that, you'd go in with your with a handful of rope or something. 

Adam  

Yeah, let's work things out.

Liam  

I just think there's something so like, there can be something so playful about sex and yeah, to have conversations about I completely get that I have to kind of check in with myself because of the world I'm in, because I could have research on this topic. I chat with people like yourselves about it. I chat with my friends about it. But in, you know, it's, it was bright and proud this weekend, and my my message to my friends were like, oh, you know, did you get lucky? Did you have fun? Were you up all night? Love that. Hope you like it's, it's casual. I'm not asking all these kind of detailed yeah things I'm yeah, you know, I'm happy to ask my friends, did you have fun at the weekend? Brilliant, yeah, yeah. So

Adam  

then that makes me want to ask you about why sex has a special, why we should treat sex in this way. So like a lot of people, I mean, there'll be like, equivalent podcasts to this, which are about, I don't know, personal finances, where two people like you and me, but the personal finance equivalents are talking about how it's important that everyone talk about personal finances, and we don't shy away from talking about this and that we'll all have more enriching lives and happier lives if we're able to reduce the shame and stigma about talking about personal finances with each other and salaries and things like that. And there'll be other people who are talking about, I don't know, foods or diets or something. Now it's really important that everyone talks about how to cook for themselves and how to eat healthy and. Stuff like that. And so all of these things are valid, right? And I'm interested in hearing your pitch for why sex should be something that we talk about, why it's important to the human experience to make sex more visible than perhaps any of these other things that also should be,

Liam  

I don't think it's more or less. I think it's recognizing that we exist in a society where sex has a form of of power, that we we are all sexual beings. And even for asexual individuals who don't have any interest in sex, don't feel sexual, they operate and exist in a society where sex is is everywhere, to some extent, in adverts, in movies and TV shows in it's used in a variety of different ways. So for us to kind of understand the impact that sex has on us, we need to be able to have more conversations about it. Yeah, we were having, for example, more open conversations about sex. We might be able to address the orgasm gap. We might be able to educate people on the differences and distinctions between gender and sexuality. We might be able to help reduce instances of homophobia transphobia by normalizing conversations about it so the glasses is a fun example of chatting about kind of fun, quirky, niche kink, sexual interests and that kind of stuff. But there's a broader problem of through limiting and reducing conversations about sexuality, which is an integral part of everybody we witness significant consequences. We witness homophobia. We witness section 28 we witness various things that are kind of, you know, that the signs are on the wall in terms of certain discourses and things are happening again, yeah? It's yeah through kind of increased visibility and awareness of of sexuality that we help address problems and potentially reduce them,

Adam  

In your work, have you looked at the specific settings of either mental health or sexual health, and how the lack of visibility and the stigma and that we've been talking about in the self censorship, how that impacts how we engage in those services.

Liam  

It's not particularly my research area, but I know there's a very famous kind of theoretical concept of minority stress theory that talks about sexual minorities will experience kind of stresses unique to them as sexual minorities. So it's and I'm in Brighton, so things are just better here in relation to sex and gender. I think I'm in a little bubble, but like, I go to the My sexual health service, I get asked my pronouns, I don't get assumptions related to my my sexual orientation, and that just makes me feel more comfortable as a person when I was 19 in Newcastle. This is no no critique or digger different sexual health services. But you know, those conversations were not happening in the same way. And it's like, Oh, I almost feel like every time I go there, I need to come out. And that we know from research like has an impact when you have to kind of other yourself and disclose your difference because of existing in a heteronormative, monogamous, vanilla kind of society. You already kind of have to break that social norm and that kind of stuff, and it has consequences that I'm looking at the sexual health experiences of kinky individuals, and what we know from the very little research already there is kinky individuals won't necessarily always disclose their engagement in kink interest because of perceived stigma, even

Adam  

even in a sexual health clinic where you're Working with a medical professional. And, you know, in theory, you know that their job is to keep things confidential, right? Yeah,

Liam  

and it might be that they don't feel it relevant to know that they get tied up. But actually, you know, there's a broader conversation there of like, oh, you know you're doing these things, and you know about consent, and you know that you can do A, B and C, and maybe the sexual health practitioner. To have a conversation about kink with, but actually, there are particular kink and sexual activities that pose greater sexual, physical, mental health risks, and we don't have many outlets to talk about that. I think the sexual health advisor is set. One of the people that you should be honest about, but we know from there's more research into the experience of kink people in mental and clinical health settings where they disclose an interest in kink. And you know the the problems that you're having with your life is probably because of your kink interests,

Adam  

and because they're jumping to that conclusion, just because kink is weird and and and bad, so therefore your other weird and bad problems must be caused by it. Yeah, yeah,

Liam  

and we see that in other Yeah, yeah. That's gonna go off on a tangent, but I won't yes 100% so what was the other point? I was gonna say, oh, oh, I think it's gone.

Adam  

I wonder if mental health and sexual health services could be the setting where we do a trial of the XX, X ray sex specs, you know, if you wear them then, and then the also the so you sort of like, it's almost like a truth serum, you know where you're sort of, it just reveals what those things that are going on, because it is in your interest to do that in that setting, if you're working with, if you're if you're being cared for by a health professional, right? Yeah, yeah.

Liam  

And actually, you saying that out loud made me realise we kind of already have the precursor to the XXX specs, which we should do a bigger version called the XXX l specs. If I didn't stutter, that would have been funnier with big eyes. 

Adam  

Yeah, absolutely.

Liam  

Yeah. We are inclusionary and all that kind of stuff here, like the internet. And think about the apps where you can have kind of saved phrases, and you can have a level of distance between the person that you're chatting to because of the screen, because of the nature that you know, in my research, the way that people on non kinky platforms chat about their kinks was, what are you into? And it would be like the leading question of, okay, well, here's a list of sexual activities. I don't need to do them all, but this is what I'm into. And it would be some of the more mainstream kink activities that people might disclose. But that kind of upfrontness of like we're chatting on a sex app. We're chatting about sexual interest. Here's what I'm into. That sort of already happens.

Adam  

Yeah, maybe so. Is that another way that the internet has already somewhat pioneered this concept of the XXX ray specs, then by just providing spaces for that. Just to go back to your earlier tone of how great and liberating the internet has been and how much it has been a huge step on the way to a free sex world. Yeah,

Liam  

think about I'm sure we're old enough to remember MySpace and Bebo and all that

Adam  

So dare you. But yes, I am.

Liam  

No comment. The you create a profile, you have your pictures, you have the about me section. And you know, the the early days of web 2.0 which was all about as much information as you can in this profile, you have, like, tell people about everything about you. And each kind of iteration of social media got less and less to the point where now it's Snapchat, where things are disappearing, like we're not having that kind of stuff, but you would have profile. And still do. People can have profiles on on socio sexual network and sites which you use for kind of sexual and social purposes, and you can just say your interests on there, yeah, the real benefit of that kind of stuff, like, if you're in that kind of kink space, or that sexual space, I suppose, in a very blunt way, you're not wasting your time on somebody, if they're, you know, if you're both top and you're both looking for a bottom and you're chatting, you can be very quickly. You're lovely. I hope you get what you want. But we're not sexually compatible, and I'm in this space for sex, so rather than those kind of leading each other on, let's be blunt where, like, this is going to happen if we find a bottom to share. Brilliant, but for now, like that, this isn't going anywhere, right? There's a benefit to that kind of stuff. Yeah, I do think it's worth pointing out, like, negatives in relation to that, I again, kind of you mentioned one of the the bluntness of it all, put it all out on the table potentially leads to a lack of exploration and intimacy and yeah, or in different

Adam  

desires, openness, like you don't know what you might enjoy until somebody suggests that you try it, and then you do it, and you wouldn't have thought about it before. And it becomes,

Liam  

it becomes kind of almost a checklist of, okay, well, I'm meeting up with this person. They only had a B, C, D and E on their profile. That's all we can kind of do, because if I do these other things, you know, they're not going to like that. And, yeah,

Liam  

there's a real, I don't know, thrill to being able to kind of explore these different

Adam  

things. Yeah, I definitely. I seduced a few people into exploring feet when they it wasn't on their list, like, let's just try this, and then that's been fun for them. They're just such good feet. I'm sure. I want to do the flip side of the glasses idea, though, just for us to test the idea and to explore it a bit is because the internet is great in all of the ways that you've said, but it does have these consequences, but really you're also talking about the social attitudes that kind of need to change and and how the Internet has sort of propelled us into a world, into a future, and some of our attitudes haven't like, kept pace with that. So your XXX-ray sex specs would just like pull the curtain down and reveal what everyone's up to or what everyone's dreaming of. Anyway, is there another version which is the opposite of that, which is that we just say, Okay, no more development out on the internet, no more new types of technology, definitely not no glasses, like the ones that you're proposing. We just stop all technological development for a while. And we work on the social attitudes, and we spend 10 years getting those right, getting proper sex education into school and young people and all of that stuff, and then we can turn the Internet back on. And would that work?

Liam  

Sure. I mean, the thing that kind of changes attitudes is is visibility is the time for people to process the amount of conversations like it was. So, yeah, so weird in my university household, I was chatting with 1819, year olds about kind of non monogamy and interests and a whole bunch of different things. And these were clearly in conversations they'd never had before, just through kind of opportunities for these people to, from, you know, my friends, from my university friends, to just be like, Wait, how does like they'd never heard of, like Grindr and that, that kind of stuff. And they were just like, Oh, my God, you engage in, like, casual sex. To that extent, they were engaged in serial monogamy, where they get a relationship for a short amount of time, have lots of sex, and then the relationship ends, and then they find something else like that was yeah, one of their norms, yeah, just through kind of having me Wittering at them for three years. It? It? I don't know if it changed attitudes, but it certainly changed their perception, and allowed them to have kind of more more developed thinking. And it was the first time I've properly had an opportunity at university to just be, to be my gay little self, because I was a level of I had it to some extent, 16, 17, 18, in sixth form. Because, yeah, I hadn't seen other examples whereas, you know, I was. I remember watching ugly, Betty and desperate housewives and all that kind of stuff, and seeing the gay example characters and, yes, stereotypical and whatever. But you know, I needed something being able to kind of explore that aspect of myself at university and just chat with people. It changed attitude. So, you know, maybe, yeah, turning the internet off for a set amount of time, and if there was a an additional thing of increased not community groups, but like seminars and yeah, people are, you know, thinking about the blue blue sky, thinking people are forced to go and interact and voice there. I don't agree with this, or I've never seen this, all that kind of stuff. Or no one does this. Okay, put your hands up if you do. Oh, okay, so maybe it's more common. Um,

Adam  

I mean, you're still, you're you're still getting the same you're just using those, those groups, in those debates to achieve the same aim that the internet is also helping towards, right? So, and it's useful for us to test the idea, because, therefore, I think what we're discovering is that actually all roads lead to the same point, which is visibility. And you know that? I guess that's no surprise, because we're we're turkeys who aren't going to vote for Christmas, because we're both separately and overlapping Lee in our work and in our world, we're both doing the same thing of visibility and exposing these things in and celebrating them actually,

Liam  

maybe for your for your initial question around, what do we need for free sex? Maybe it's and I first time I've said this, but to turn the internet off and to just have chats because you're mentioning the different bubbles that we're in. I this year, I teach sexualities at University of Brighton as a final year unit to psychology students, and I gave a lecture on kink and kind of developments of kink and so called all that kind of stuff, all completely academic. I'm more academic. In those settings, I promise. And I said, you know, where hands up at the start? Where did people think kink interest came from? And a student put their hands up and said, What's mental illness? I was like, Can you expand on that? And it's like, well, something happened that's bad in a childhood, and not a critique of that student. It blew me away, though, because I am so in my own bubbles and my own worlds, and speaking to academics who are like me, and I have my friendship networks, who these individuals kind of share my thinking, and we have chats about these different things, to speak to a student who hadn't had an opportunity to ask questions about that, or, you know, they never needed to necessarily think about that kind of stuff before, and they were working on stereotypes and that kind of stuff. It made me think, Oh, crap. Like, I bubble, yeah, yeah. But it's I, don't I, I see examples of of other researchers talking about the there's still huge stigma attached to kink. And I agree, but I sometimes roll my eyes about how much they emphasise and stress that. And it was sort of chatting through with that students like, oh, like these, you know, maybe I one of the things I need to do is step up my bubbles. And, you know, I try to, I try to do engagement and stuff, and I gave my lecture student came up at the end. I was like, I'm so sorry. I was like, Don't apologise. You have reminded me why I'm doing this particular work. Yeah. So, yeah, maybe we need to turn the internet off and just wear sunglasses. Sunny Day.

Adam  

Definitely, there's some kind of eyewear needs going on here. That's, well, that's, if listeners, if you want anything to take away from this, it's, it's the need for good eyewear. And I say this is the lifelong specs wearer as well, lifelong specky Liam, I think we should leave it there, because that's a lot to digest and a lot to think through, and I really appreciate you indulging me in this futuristic, adventurous, maximum internet slash zero internet world that we're imagining.

Liam  

I wish I could have been a bit more coherent in my thoughts, but a sunny Monday afternoon with the premise of, yeah, we'll just chat about different things. Okay, I never thought I'd reach the conclusion of, you know the internet is potentially bad.

Adam  

Well, especially because a lot of your work is that about all the ways that the internet has really, really helped people, which it is, and I think that that's the overarching theme of this episode, is the internet is not a neutral thing. It has absolutely massively helped lots of people, and it also has its consequences, and it behooves us all the time to be reflecting on on that and what level of visibility and Freedom The internet gives us, and technology actually, more broadly, we just always have to be critical users of these things, don't we? 100% Yeah. Oh, well. Thank you so much.

Liam  

Thank you very much - it’s been fun.

—

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode! 

Let me know what you think of FREE SEX  - the idea or this podcast! 

Leave me a review and a star rating if you can!

On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x 

Listen to this episode on your podcast player of choice.

*This episode discusses sexual assault and an alleged case of rape*

Adam

Everyone should be free to have the sex that they want.

I think this is true but... we make it way too difficult and complicated.

If we want to create a FREE SEX world, what do we have to change?

From Aunt Nell, this is... Free Sex... with me, Adam Zmith. 

Every episode of this podcast, a different guest gives me a fresh idea. Together we’re building a world where everyone can have the sex they want... one podcast episode at a time.

Hi I’m Adam, a writer, podcast producer, walker, talker, thinker, wanker. I started having sex at 29, TWENTY-NINE, and I’ve been obsessed ever since. What stopped me? That’s the question that motivates me in all my work! How do we, as a society, hold each other back in sex? 

This podcast is fully pansexual and gender fluid: from mild to wild, everyone is welcome. 

Let’s go! 

Why do we desire what we desire?

My guest in this episode is Kitty Drake, a journalist who interviews a lot of people about the sex they have. Kitty helped me to see that we could approach a free-sex world if we’re able to give ourselves over to sex while at the same time hold space for reflecting on why we fancy it. How are our desires shaped by the politics and societies that we live in?

Kitty writes a regular column in The Guardian and recently published a fun and fascinating global sweep of peoples’ sex lives. Her work is influenced by feminist politics and deep thinkers, such as Susan Sontag and Amia Srinivasan. Let’s get thinking!

Adam  

Kitty Drake, welcome to Free Sex.

Kitty Drake  

Hello. I'm really pleased to be here.

Adam  

What does free sex mean to you?

Kitty Drake  

Well, I think that there's no such thing as free sex, because I feel like all of our desires and our sexual proclivities are actually shaped by forces beyond our control, like our environment and our upbringing and there are certain reasons why you want what you want. So in some ways, you're never really free. But I think me, the task of feminism is always to ask yourself, and also the task of just being a human being, ask yourself, why do you desire what you desire? What would you desire if you really had a free choice,

Adam  

right? So if I'm thinking of trying to get us closer to that world of free sex, which I think you're right, it doesn't exist and will never exist, and that's okay. It's all about the journey. If we're trying to move closer to there, then your contribution there, your provocation there is to get us off basically thinking and talking a lot more about it and why, why we desire what we desire. Because that's in a political and social context, isn't it,

Kitty Drake  

exactly. I guess I kind of have this kind of very, I'm quite split in my own mind about this as well, okay, and in my personal life, because I feel like it's amazing that fantasy is this place where you can say anything, you can imagine anything. I don't think that we should self censor. You know, I think if you want to imagine being kind of, you know, forcibly, you know, have have sex. If you want to imagine someone forcing sex on you, and that turns you on, yeah, then go for it. Like, you know, so many limits on ourselves in life. Like, I think a lot of sex is about trying to let that go, and then, however, I also think the completely opposite thing as well. I think that, but I think maybe the two things can be true, and that's what's difficult about being human, and maybe you need to grapple with that. It's like, I don't believe that authoritarian. In moralism has any place in feminism or even good sex to say, Oh God, I shouldn't be thinking that. I need to think about something else. But I do also think that we should gently hold in our minds. Why is it that I like that for example, like for me, a more clear cut example, and I'm gonna sound really old fashioned here, but like, girls posting semi clad pictures of themselves online, which I have done. Like, I don't have an Instagram account, but I'm probably a bit too old to like, actually do that now, but friends of mine do it. You know, I see the appeal of doing it. You feel hot, you feel sexy. You're coming into your power. Yeah. But I also just find it like actually quite degrading that, yeah, we as women need to take scantily clad photos of ourselves to feel empowered. So I think, right, rather than lazily, just stopping the sentence at I want to take my clothes off and take a photo of myself and post it online, and that makes me feel empowered. We need to say, like, why does it make me feel empowered? And would it make me feel empowered if I was really free?

Adam  

And that's what you're up to, presumably, what you what you're trying to do in your work as a writer and journalist, right? So tell me a bit about why you chose that particular medium to explore this mission that you've got, and how did that start?

Kitty Drake  

I mean, I wouldn't say that I chose journalism in all this. I kind of chose journalism because what I like is how weird and strange people are and how unexpected they are and how and I always find that when I talk to people, they say completely not what I expect, you know, and I just find that endless weirdness of people really interesting, and that's kind of what has always excited me about doing journalism, but I think that the reason why I've fallen into writing a lot about sex is because, I think the really interesting space because it's, it's, you know, we're thinking about that idea of free sex. Again, it's both where we are most free, where most ourselves were most like idiosyncratically us, like most personal space, but it's also the most political space. It's like completely riven with politics and that that is fascinating to me, that there can be this very intimate thing that is both intimate and like, the most public Yeah, the most Riven with the public Yeah. And that's what always kind of fascinated me about that that work, and I think like talking to people about sex, as I do every week for the column that I do in The Guardian i When you talk about sex, you immediately get to the heart of some other things, like, so much like, I think a lot of like, sex is embarrassing. You're putting yourself out there. Like, often you feel like, deeply ashamed and deeply needy while you're having sex. Like and, and to talk to people about sex, you get to that thing, which I think is what makes us human, you know, like the really deep things, like the need, the embarrassment about how much we need, the kind of fear of experimentation, the want to experiment, the want to be free, the need want to also be contained and looked after. You know, I just feel like it's a kind of main line into so many of the things that I find very emotionally interesting. 

Adam  

Can you share some of the insights that you found through that main line? And I'm thinking specifically of that recent piece that you did, which was, like really expansive, telling the stories of how people have sex in different countries and different places that was published in The Guardian. What are some, what's the breadth of insights that you found there?

Kitty Drake  

Hmm, I mean, that's a tricky one. I do feel like I had a lot of insights from doing that about, I mean, I'm gonna have a couple of goes at this. Okay, okay, yeah, yeah. I one thing that I find endlessly interesting about doing this column is that I interview people separately. So if I was gonna interview you, I would interview you, and then I would interview your partner the next day. Yeah. And I'm always very fascinated by how differently people see the same relationship number one. So the fact that, you know, I can be speaking to a woman, as I did last week, who tells me, uh. Uh, our issue in our relationship is my boyfriend's always wanted to have sex more than I do, yeah, and, and then I speak to the man the next day, and he just, like, totally doesn't see that as the issue in their relationship. Like, he denies that he wants to have sex more than her. Like, I'm always fascinated by the fact that we can see things so differently are in our relationships. But I'm also always really fascinated by the fact that sometimes your partner knows something about you that you don't even know yourself, like for example, I'll share one story, and it has to be anonymous, obviously, which it would be, but I spoke to a couple, and the man had been had cheated on the woman, and the woman who I'll call Sue, right, and I'll call the man John, so one had cheated on sue, sue had also cheated on John, and then the woman who John had cheated with had then accused him of raping her, right? And he denies that accusation, and, you know, ruined his life. It ruined his whole career. He says that it's because he, you know, had sex with this woman and then kind of cooled it off, and then she sought to ruin his life out of revenge. You know, personally, I believe him, because I spoken to him at length about it, and I spoke to his partner about it, but it was very moving to me the woman Sue she said this thing to me that's always kind of stayed with me. It might not even work for this context of how I'm telling story, but I might not even but she he is convinced that he didn't rape someone, right? Yeah, she said to me, privately, the thing is, is that he's so inhibited about sex, and he's so he shuts down when he's in the middle of sex. And sometimes you're trying to get through to him and you can't, and it's not for anything, but it's just like he's got a lot of hang ups about sex, and he's almost kind of like mechanical in the way through sex. And so she said to me privately, I can understand why that woman thought that their relationship like that, that something had gone wrong.

Adam  

I see because she might have been trying to get through to him, but yeah,

Kitty Drake  

but all that felt that like a lack of care during your sexual encounter. And it kind of amazed me that this woman Sue could see something in John. Could see this massive failing and this massive difficulty. Still love him, and he might never even really know that about himself. I don't know it just like I just, I find, I found that very moving. I'm very sad, actually, but also, like, hopeful that we can, that you can be known that intimately, and your partner can know something really, like not flattering about you or not good, yeah, not evil, but not good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that, to me, is moving,

Adam  

yeah, and it, it's a it's such a complicated story that it proves your bigger point and your answer to my question about free sex in a way that we have to be able to hold multiple, I don't know, truths or realities at the same Time, or like, competing ideas and the conflict between, like, social politics and interpersonal relationships and things that sorts of things, exactly, yeah,

Kitty Drake  

absolutely, yeah. And it like, yeah. It's a difficult story to tell, because, of course, I'm not trying to apologise for anyone who's, you know, has has sexually assaulted somebody. But I do also think that that the reason why sex is such a difficult thing to legislate on as well is because there's so many gradations of consent, yeah, and there's so many moments like, I know from my personal life, when I've been having sex with people where I'm a bit like, you know, I wouldn't say that this was rape. I wouldn't say that this was sexual assault, but I'm definitely not enjoying myself, and I maybe don't have words to say it, and I can't get through to the other person, and that person isn't deliberately trying to do anything. They just haven't been educated properly, and they don't even know their own body and their own self, like there's so much at stake. But

Adam  

anyway, yeah, and I'm curious about the fact that you said you don't have a personal Instagram account, and that you do this really important work of interviewing people. You write the column, you write all the features. That's about sex and and that's and that's writing. That's your medium. And I'm curious of. About what you think in 2024 is the role of writing and journalism, and those are two slightly distinct things compared to like all the other media through which this topic can be explored. I

Kitty Drake  

mean, well, I feel like writing. You know, I've always just loved reading and books and words. I feel like writing can take you on a journey in a way that film and no other media can. And I've always felt that way, because I, what I, what I quite like about writing is it's divorced from the cool or the trendy in a sense, you know, like a really nice Instagram image or a really nice film can look aesthetically like, yeah, sexy or cool in a way that I think that if you tell somebody story through writing, there's something Like almost slightly purer about it like, it's not image obsessed. You make the image in your head. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with images. I love images, but I just, yeah, I find it to be like, it's something like, wonderfully, like, disembodied, isn't there? About writing? Yeah, you have it. I think it's, I think, you know what? I actually think it's that you have this incredibly private experience when you're reading something and you you bring it into being in the act of reading it, like everyone who reads something is going to see it slightly differently in their head and experience it slightly differently and and I'm sure that's true with film and other media, but like, to a lesser extent, I think,

Adam  

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? And do you think that? Well, well, how, how do you think the role of writing and journalism will will change in terms of how we talk and think and, you know, engage with these ideas around sex? Yeah.

Kitty Drake  

Well, I think, you know, when I started out in journalism, you know people, people didn't tell stories about sex that were as explicit as what we're doing right now in The Guardian, in a mainstream paper, at all? Yeah, yeah. And still, you know, I get so many complaints every week, people disgusted by the fact that we're running a column really explicit about sex in in The Guardian. What do they say? I mean, just like, this is unnecessary. This is disgusting. You know, once we had people having sex in a cinema, like, like, once they'd had sex in cinema, and so people were just absolutely outraged by that. They said it was like violating other people's consent because they weren't able to consent to being in the same cinema that somebody was having sex. And I was, like, everyone like, it's pretty well known that people are fumbling about in the cinema, like we've all seen Greece, you know. But, you know, but then loads of people also write in and say, I really like this. And, you know, people always applying to be part of it and tell their own story. So it's kind of a balance. But I suppose in terms of, like journalism, I feel like we kind of, we've gone to this point now where you're able to talk about anything in a mainstream paper. You're even able to talk about threesomes, you're even able to talk about and I wonder how much further you can push the envelope, you know, yeah, yeah, whether it's even necessary to push the envelope even further, you know, I just wonder. I think, I think the thing you always have to grapple with in journalism, and particularly like mainstream journalism, is sex sells, and that's why there are so many pieces on it, you know, want to click on things with sex so I feel like the column has really good intentions and is about telling kind of stories about people, even more than it is about telling stories about sex. And I almost see the medium into talking about the people, yeah. But I think there is a certain sort of like cynicism in journalism, that if you put sex in the title of something, people

Adam  

can read it well. I mean, that's why I called this podcast free sex, because, you know, it's relevant. But I also thought it'd be great to have the word sex in the title. And, you know, and also free is like, deliberately, yeah, simplistic and ambiguous and playful, in a way. But I was consciously thinking of that as well. When I was yeah, when I was naming the podcast, I wondered,

Kitty Drake  

I wonder, I mean, yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, because I wonder whether we dilute I wonder whether we'll get to a point where everyone's absolutely sick of sex and nobody something because it says sex. I wonder whether we will get to that point people are putting a different word into the title because it's. Not interesting anymore. Yeah.

Adam  

But I also think that what people like you and I are trying to do is broaden out how to talk and think about sex, so that the word itself is not so you know, it's not about sex so much, actually, it's about all these other things. It's about care, it's about politics, it's about intimacy, it's about pleasure, and all of these things come under the headline of sex, right? But the word, you know, the word sex, which often, which is kind of an umbrella term, but also in most people's mind, I think, has quite like a narrow idea of what that is. I think that that is that sort of like, gets us in it, it gets us into that conversation, but actually, what we're doing is broadening it all out. Yeah, well, at least I hope so. No,

Kitty Drake  

absolutely, I totally agree with you, but I just, I just sometimes think about that when I'm looking at like,

Adam  

are we gonna need be desensitized? Yeah, I actually want to ask you a bit more about the, I guess, the ideas and the thinkers, be they writers or otherwise, who have influenced you as you've gone through this journey of building a career about writing about sex, you know and you know, Where are you grounding your ideas in and I'm not like your academic supervisor or something. It's not accountability. It's just I'm curious, like, where your family know your feminist thinkers and your sex positive thinkers that

Kitty Drake  

you're drawing on? Well, when I was back doing the feminist magazine that I used to make called Ladybeard, we interviewed a lot of people who were really foundational for me, Betty Dodson, who kind of spearheaded a masturbation movement for women. I'm going to get my dates wrong, think like from the 70s onwards in New York, Annie Sprinkle, who's this amazing sex educator and porn star, and her wonderful partner, whose name I've forgotten. So can I just Google it so we can put it in

Kitty Drake  

Beth Stevens, yeah, so Annie Sprinkle, the amazing feminist porn star and sex educator and then her partner, her wife, Beth Stevens, they're amazing. Maggie Nelson, Jacqueline Rose. Susan Sontag, I love the essay and the I about when she she says this great thing where she's like, I mean, I don't agree with her, but she says this thing where she says that sex is actually like we're trying to make sex moral, but it's not like we're trying to make sex into this beautiful thing. But it's not right, yeah, what it most resembles in is an epileptic fit, and it's actually this kind of dark force within us, right? Yeah, yeah, which I found really fascinating. I can see

Speaker 1  

that idea being a foundational one for you in your work, in a way, like it's because it's about that complexity of it and the, yeah, the like, the thing that you were saying about how you can, like, mainline into who a person is via sex.

Kitty Drake  

Yeah, exactly. And I also suppose, like with Susan Sontag, she's kind of saying that fact, fantasies are dark and evil, and we should just free ourselves and allow ourselves to think like the most dark and dreadful and evil thing that we can think of. Yeah, yeah. But then again, I would kind of come back from it like, okay, have the dark and evil fantasy, but never stop thinking, why am I having this dark and evil fantasy? Yes, kind of interesting, you know, I and then obviously Amia Srinivasan is, like, right, amazing on exactly this. And, yeah,

Adam  

I what it's I find it really interesting that those are, I mean, I've, I'm familiar with some of the work of about maybe half or a little bit more of that list that you just said, and they're all women, as far as I know. And there's another book that I just read recently that's coming to mind by Manon Garcia, called The Joy of Consent, which is about, which is kind of new, and it's about, she's a philosopher, and it's about consent, but within this complicated framework that you're sort of talking about, which is that we've publicly and even legally, we've got into this realm of like. Consent is this black and white thing, either it's there or it's not there, and therefore either the sex that happens around that is either right or wrong, you know, and then she's like, she's like, Well, I'm gonna write 300 pages about why it's so much more complicated than that. And these are, like, really, really big thinkers. And I've also noticed in making free sex that the people that I seem to bump up against in the internet sort of world and the thinking world around sex, it tends, there tends to be more women than men that are doing the thinking along all of these kinds of lines, right? And I, and, you know, it's great, you know. And, and and I'm just, I'm curious what you think of that, because it makes me think, like, Well, God, if the men who who are kind of trying to have conversations about sex, are they just Andrew Tate types of people, and it's that sort of angle. So I'm, you know, I'm curious, like, what you make of that, or is it just that we're kind of influenced by our own bubbles that we're all in these days about this. I don't know, what do you think?

Kitty Drake  

God, that's a tricky question. I think. I mean, there's one answer, and I'm not even sure if I'd buy it. The answer would start with, are you straight or gay?

Adam  

Aren't now as a man me Adam, I'm gay and queer, yeah, yeah,

Kitty Drake  

I thought so, and not because of anything other than the fact that you're making this podcast, right? I think that if you are, and honestly, as I say this, I'm not even believing my answer, so I'll give you the other answer as well. Yeah, I think if you're a woman, right? And or if you're not, if you're not straight. You have to think quite a lot about why you want, what you want, definitely, like, know, you a bit like,

Adam  

I thought about it for 29 years, yeah.

Kitty Drake  

Who am I like? What right do I have to desire what I desire? I'm, I'm, you know, I would define myself as, like, straight, mostly straight, yeah, but I do still think that as a woman, you have such a kind of complicated relationship to your own sexuality and like, yeah, you know how you should be sexually, that maybe you just interrogate it a little bit more from an early age, and you're thinking about it, and then in a way that a straight man might not interrogate their desire. But then, having said that, like, I don't even buy my own answer, because I think the straight men have like, huge hang ups and huge difficulties about sex, and I feel like my heart honestly goes out to sound so patronising, but it really does like isn't the couples, it's always the straight man who's having the most difficulty with his sexuality, his desire. But

Adam  

isn't your point? Actually, that that they they are the ones with those difficulties, but they are not equipped to interrogate why they have those problems and they haven't had to go through the kind of like automatic thinking, like the kind of enforced thinking that that women and queer men and other minoritized People have had to go through.

Kitty Drake  

Yeah, I think so. I think so, I think so. But then it's hard, isn't it?

Adam  

Yeah, because I don't want to be, we don't want to be essentialist about this, that like, Well, women can do this and men can't do it, you know, because it's not as simple

Kitty Drake  

as that. They're the ones who are on porn sites the most, I'm sure, right? And surely that does make you question what you like, because you're taking in these dreadful search terms or whatever you know. Like, I do it myself. I watch porn myself. But and it does make you think, like, Oh, why do I want to see that? Yeah, no. And I think a lot of men are questioning, but maybe they're maybe the straight men are like, so like, maybe trapped within embarrassment and shame cycles, and don't have a community like, you know, as a woman, I think you have a community to say, Yeah, I'm feeling confused about my desire. Yeah, maybe as a gay person as well, or weird person like, you also have a community to turn to and be like, Hey, what's up with what I'm feeling? And I sometimes think maybe straight men don't have that community, yeah, yeah. Maybe that's why they're not making the work about sex and desire, because they're not like asking those questions from the time they can breathe and talk and right.

Adam  

So then, I mean, I think that you're onto something there. So then my next question then, is like, how do we as people that make work about sex, and that are all about encouraging people to think about these things and to think about sex so that we can all together collectively have the sex that we want, or the better sex and the Freer sex and so on again, journey, not the destination. Like, what. Our duty and responsibility towards those people who may be predominantly straight men, but maybe other people in general who are just not able to do that. That reflection, do you think about that?

Kitty Drake  

Oh, God, I don't know. I mean, I guess you know, men read newspapers, men listen to media. Maybe just like, you know, by by having these conversations, either in kind of non mainstream places or in mainstream places. Maybe we'll just make people read something and then think about it, for example, that film how to have sex, right? Oh, yeah. Film, yeah. So, like, I know a couple of, I heard kind of anecdotes about a couple of male friends who saw it, and it was just like, they wanted their sister to see it, or they want, you know, like, where it really made an impression on them, and to have, like, that kind of nuanced question. And exploration of consent and the weird Blurred Lines of it. Sorry, not to quote Rob and Vic there, but yeah, I think to have that as a mainstream film that loads of people see, I do think that does change things. Yes,

Adam  

yeah, yeah. So basically, we keep making films, we keep writing columns, we keep doing podcasts. I do think that there's some kind of and I don't honestly have an answer for this. If anyone listening and got ideas, then let me know. But like, I do think that there's something specific that needs to be done about how maybe I'm just speaking for myself, like, how to reach those harder to reach people with this type of conversation, because they might look at free sex and be like, Oh, that's for, like, women and queer people, even though it's really not. And I try really hard to have a range of guests and a range of topics, you know, and, but, yeah, I'm just thinking about that. And that was why I was, yeah,

Kitty Drake  

I guess, like, I mean, what I think is quite interesting when I do the column is because I often speak to men and straight, yeah, what the column and part of the couple, they always the most reluctant to speak. Usually, it's like the girlfriend who gets in touch with me, and it's like, oh, I want to tell the story. You know, interesting, yeah. And then the men are more more difficult. They don't want to speak, you know, they don't want to they don't want to talk about something, yeah, but, but I also think that they often say the most interesting things, because then,

Adam  

usually reluctant contributors are the most interesting when you actually get them on the record,

Kitty Drake  

and they are very insightful about why they want, what they want, yeah, and you know what they think is going on in a relationship. Actually, they are sometimes more insightful than the woman, because they're not speaking in this very like therapized language, having constantly access their emotions, you know. And it's not always true. Often the women are more insightful because they are used to talking about it. But sometimes I think, you know, I often think of this thing like, I've always been interested in the way women communicate versus the way men communicate. Like, you know, we have this thing. Women, they have this thing. It's, it's noted in female friendship groups. It's called co rumination, where problem, and the first time you talk about it, it's helpful, but then you start to co ruminate, where you bring it up and bring it up and bring it up, and it actually makes the person unable to get past their problem, because they're kind of almost bringing up for the juiciness of it amongst their friendship groups. So then women find it much more difficult, apparently statistically, to like, get over hurt or setbacks, whereas men, for all the talk of bottling things up, they do more side along communication where they kind of don't talk about the emotion or talk about it briefly, and then, like, go and do an activity together. And actually, that's better, like, psychological wounds, apparently.

Adam  

Okay, wow. Well, just let it. Just let it be known for the record that it's July 12, and I've learned something from a straight man. Finally, 12th of July, 2024 here we are. That wasn't on my bingo card. That's really interesting about how we process. Yeah,

Kitty Drake  

I think it is really interesting. And then I think, I suppose it almost relates to sex as well. I don't know, maybe it doesn't quite relate, but I often, sometimes think like, I do believe in questioning our choices, right, and thinking deeply about the sex that we have and the desires that we want, right? But then I also sometimes I'm like, would you have better, more satisfying sex if, like, everything's kind of bottled up and you didn't think too much about that realm in a weird sort of way. Like, would it be dirtier? Would it be sexy? Yeah, like, Would it be, well, I think there be something, as Susan would say, forbidden about sex and nasty, and you just leave it that way.

Adam  

I can you, can we encourage a world where it's two things, where there is a realm where you're talking and thinking and processing and and reading and kind of being a political, social citizen, in a way that you're encouraging people to do through your work, and then at the same time, assuming that you have good practices around care and consent, that when it comes to the sex moment and the arena that you fully let yourself go into that. And I think that that having those two modes, it feels weird to sort of talk about people as if we can divide all of those things, because when you're in the second mode, you are still carrying in all of the things from the first mode, aren't you? That's kind of the point. But then I think, I think the best sex, and I think a lot of I've heard a lot of people say this is the freest sex that I feel that I have, and the best sex that I feel that I have is when I'm so present in that moment of sex, and I'm not thinking about any thing else, and it's so engulfing and intimate and gorgeous. And that might be like the world's darkest BDSM fantasy, or it might be the most sort of, you know, Hallmark, beautiful, soft focus, lovemaking. But the point is that you're extremely present in this particular moment, and the rest of the world has fallen away. And so that's what I'm thinking about, those two modes having listened to you, yeah,

Kitty Drake  

yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what I would like to believe comes from that. But I also wonder whether maybe, like, we repress things in life and sex is an arena where we can work through them. And maybe if you over analyze it too much outside the bedroom, it won't work inside the bedroom, which would make me completely out of a job, right? But, but I almost think, but maybe it's just between the couples I would maybe, maybe, maybe the thing is, is that you can process everything and ask these questions, which are really intellectual questions. And I like asking them, because it's like fun. Think about the way human beings work. Maybe you have to do that with someone who's not your partner. Going, why did you, you know? Yeah, interesting that you you went to kind of grab my arm. There is that because your father used to grab your arm. Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, it may very well be true, yeah, but maybe you can't talk about some things with your partner if you want the erotic stuff to still flourish,

Adam  

right? So there is a, there is an answer to my question of, how do we get to a world of free sex, which is, and this would be for a different episode, and it'd be interesting to think who the speaker could be, the guest could be. But the the answer is, well, the way that we can start to move towards a world of free sex is that everyone has access to free therapy and counseling where they can talk about their sex life. I mean, in the in England, at least, if not the UK, but certainly in England, I know that you're entitled to six free sessions with a therapist on the NHS to talk about sex. The waiting list is no idea about that. Yeah, the waiting list is very long. But if you go to a sexual health clinic regularly, like I do, then, then it's just a standard question that they say, Is this anything that you'd want to talk to somebody about? Because we can put you on the list for six free sessions. You know, I don't know how long it'll be different in different places.

Kitty Drake  

Still on the waiting list for therapy, for just general therapy, general a year and a half, right?

Adam  

Yeah. So this is not so that, yeah. So that's the NHS is currently not providing that, but, um, but that makes me think that there is an answer to the question of, how do we get to free sex world, which is, yeah, free like, immediate access to therapy for everyone to talk about sex and bodies and all of these things, so that it's then it's just a part of everyone's life. Yeah, and the next series of free sex will be sponsored by the UK association of psychotherapists or whatever. No, it's not, I just made that up. I'm just saying like, I mean, it's like, because I'm like, sort of promoting their work. But yeah,

Kitty Drake  

yeah, um, yeah. I mean, I think so. I think so, I Yeah. Again, another person who really is so influential in this field. I mean, I'm sure she is to absolutely everyone. Esther Perel,

Adam  

oh, yeah, okay. I thought you were gonna say Madonna for a second, but yeah. Esther Perel, oh, Madonna as well.

Kitty Drake  

But Esther Perel, I think she's quite interesting in the sense that she thinks there are things that you should keep back from your partner, like full honesty and full disclosure, like bearing your full self and. Every thought that's ever gone through your brain, yeah? Is an aphrodisiac. Is not an aphrodisiac, yeah, yeah. And I think that for me as a woman, is quite difficult to get my head around. I'm like, what? Yeah, everything about me, and every single thought and feeling I've ever had, oh and you now you don't want to fuck me, like, oh, okay, it's confusing. But I think, yeah, I think she's quite good about that. Well,

Adam  

let's leave it there, kitty with that recommendation of another podcast, actually, so listeners can, like, spring forward and go listen to some of Esther Perel's work. I really appreciate you taking the time. It's been really kind of Yeah, brain pulsy And getting me thinking about all these things. So thank

Kitty Drake  

you. Oh, it's been really lovely. It's lovely to speak to you.

Adam

Thanks for listening to this episode! 

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On social media I’m @adamzmith, yes that’s Smith but with a Z, yeah Zmith, mmm it feels good in the mouth hahah. You can find more Aunt Nell productions on our website auntnell.com and on social we’re @auntnell_.

The theme music is TransLife by Othon

Hosted, produced and edited by Adam Zmith

The Executive Producer for Aunt Nell is Tash Walker

To all you loves and lovers, good night x